Minter Dialogue with Flavia Barbat

This podcast features a conversation with my guest Flavia Barbat, exploring the intricacies of branding and communication. Flavia, originally from Transylvania, shares her journey as editor-in-chief of Branding Mag and her approach to crafting meaningful brand narratives. The discussion delves into the importance of nuanced, long-form content in a world dominated by short attention spans and clickbait. Flavia emphasises the need for honesty and clarity in brand communication, challenging the notion that every brand needs a world-changing purpose. The conversation also touches on her efforts to reshape Romania’s national identity through branding principles.

Key points:

1. The value of long-form, nuanced content in brand communication

2. The importance of honesty and clarity over forced brand purpose

Please send me your questions — as an audio file if you’d like — to nminterdial@gmail.com. Otherwise, below, you’ll find the show notes and, of course, you are invited to comment. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to rate it here.

To connect with Flavia Barbat:

• Check out the BrandingMag site here
• Find/follow Flavia Barbat on LinkedIn
• Find/follow Flavia on X (formerly Twitter)

Further resources for the Minter Dialogue podcast:

Meanwhile, you can find my other interviews on the Minter Dialogue Show in this podcast tab, on Megaphone or via Apple Podcasts. If you like the show, please go over to rate this podcast via RateThisPodcast! And for the francophones reading this, if you want to get more podcasts, you can also find my radio show en français over at: MinterDial.fr, on Megaphone or in iTunes. Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s (please excuse the quality of the sound!).

Transcription courtesy of Flowsend.ai, an AI full-service for podcasters

Minter Dial: Flavia Barbat, I’ve been following your work. I saw that you were the editor of Branding Mag, and of course, being a branding dude, as I am. Oh, that’s interesting. So, let’s start with the traditional question on the mentor dialogue, which is, who is Flavia?

Flavia Barbat: Thank you So, much for having me. And thank you for the compliment of following my work. I suppose I’m not. It’s only recently that I became a little bit more public facing, let’s say. So, I still am very, very humbled. Very humbled by, by the statement when people come and say, you know, I’ve been following your journey. And my journey is, is an interesting one, let’s say. Personally, I’m. I’m from Transylvania originally, which I grew up, and then I grew up in the US So, I say Transylvania because it was always a lot of fun to say it. I used to get the answer, you know, wow, that’s. No, but, like, that’s a real place. And I said, yeah, you know, it’s a, it’s a. It’s a region of Romania. And so, I’m originally from there. I moved to the US when I was very young. I did all of my schooling there, including university.

Minter Dial: So, with your parents, presumably, correct?

Flavia Barbat: Yes. And this was shortly after the communist revolution. I am an only child, So, you can only imagine I am. It was very much the American dream, let’s say, for we were a team, you know, they were young, we didn’t have a lot of money, et cetera, et cetera. So, it was very much. We were, you know, the three musketeers, let’s say, kind of going into a new. Into a new land. And, and that influenced a lot what I did throughout my life, because I definitely felt some kind of responsibility to do something valuable, let’s say, something worthy of the sacrifices that had been made. And to be honest, when I was finishing university, had gotten the best marks in school, always. I was very diligent, I was very, you know, the, the usual, I guess, for, for this, this history, this context.

Minter Dial: In terms of family, classifying it as the. The immigrant who comes in the hunger, the. The known safety net in America. So, you have to succeed at some level.

Flavia Barbat: Yeah. And I was also raised very independent. You know, my parents had to obviously work a lot, So, I was alone quite a bit. There was no family around, So, I didn’t really have that luxury. And so, I was very focused on, on my things, you know, what I was building, what I was doing, what I was writing, because I was writing Since I was little, I didn’t realize that I would go into writing in the end, but now I can see it. You know, looking back, the signs were kind of there and I did everything correctly. And when I was finishing university, what I realized is that the jobs that I was being offered were less. Not in terms of money, that’s not what I mean. I just mean less than what I was capable of. I, I didn’t, you know, and, and I’ve always been honest with my parents. So, I looked at them and I said, you know, this, this doesn’t make sense. This doesn’t, you know, all of the internships, all of the things I have proven that I can do, So, much more. I’ve, I’ve been in, in situations where bosses or partners or whatever you want to call it, you know, I, I, I could see that I could do what they were doing, maybe even do it better. And I also proved it along the way and I said, I cannot possibly start from here. There must be something else. And so, while I was looking for a role and I was, let’s say, coming to the end of my schooling, I found this website called brandingmagazine.com And so, I didn’t found branding mag, which a lot of people don’t know, but it was some guys in Serbia, much younger than even I was at the time. I think they were 18 or 19. Designers and developers by trade that loved branding. Before it was really a thing, you know, before people realized that it’s not just a visual identity and a logo and things like this. And so, they bought this domain that was obviously very valuable. They bought it and they, and they built brandingmagazine.com and I came in as a contributor, I applied as a contributor. I said, ah, I didn’t study branding in school, it wasn’t a thing then. Still, we were, we were not, we were studying marketing, advertising, you know, entertainment media technology, radio, etc. But not branding as a, as a concept and, or as a set of principles even. And so, I became a contributor for them. I was just, I was in New York, I was just writing articles about campaigns and, and things like this and, and I found it incredibly interesting. But I also became very good friends with obviously the owners and the founders and I quickly became editor in chief because I was in New York. I was, you know, English as a, well, not a first language but quasi. And they, they made me editor in chief because we, like I said, I got involved very quickly and one thing led to another and because of personal Reasons and things like that. I ended up having half of it, like sharing it, 50, 50 with the founder and then ultimately buying him out, I think a year later because he wanted to, you know, they had other businesses, they had other things, and they asked me if I wanted to take it over. They trusted me with their vision. I said, yeah, of course. And so, I remember that, you know, it was probably like the biggest investment I ever made at that age. Yeah, it was, you know, and it was a big deal for me. But I remember telling my parents, you know, shortly after I started being editor in chief of Branding Mag, before I bought it, let’s say I told them, I said, there’s something here. I told them, I said, there’s something here. Not just with Branding Mag, but there’s something about how I’m seeing what I want to do with Branding Mag. And I think it can apply to companies. And so, I started thinking of, you know, I don’t want to write about campaigns. I don’t want to do short form content. I don’t want to do. I want to do long form thought leadership, educational, practical advice that is not self-promotional. That is not this like icky, you know, gossipy kind of thing at a time when really, I think every platform around us at that time was doing the opposite. You know, short attention spans and, yeah, 250 words per article. And, and I’ve always said that the only way, let’s say, in life, one of my biggest rules is that if everybody is looking left, I look right. That’s one of my immediate triggers. If I see a majority of people looking in one direction or doing something in one direction, I immediately go and try the opposite. It’s been 100% correct for me So, far. Let’s see, moving forward.

Minter Dial: Do you invest in the stock market, Flavia?

Flavia Barbat: No, but it sounds like you ought to. Yeah, it’s, you know, I’m, I’m the contrarian, you know, I think that. Well, no, in markets it’s also proven correct, let’s say not in stock markets, but in other markets. I’ve definitely invested. And it’s also proven, it’s an interesting. It’s, you know, it takes a little bit of. You have to be a little bit crazy to, to, to really. You have to have a lot of faith. You have to really cultivate, like a very strong relationship with your intuition or else it will drive you nuts because the things don’t happen immediately. You know, it’s not like, oh, I made the switch and then all of a sudden everybody Realized that, you know, we’re looking 12 years later and I’m still having some of the same discussions. Let’s say it’s now that AI has completely, I want to say, just pummeled through and kind of exacerbated that entire Trend that started 10, 12 years ago with that I was just describing has exacerbated it to a point where people are finally, finally maybe realizing that, you know, there was some truth to what I had been saying from before. And, and fortunately there were a lot of companies along the way that, that understood this and they became clients of ours. And this was the thing that I told my parents at the, at the beginning, you know, I was, I don’t know, 20, 21 when I graduated, 22 when I kind of took over Branding Mag. And I told them, I said, listen, if you can support me for a little while longer, I really believe that there’s something here and I want to go into consulting immediately. And lo and behold, it worked. I went to Khan Lions for the first time as a media partner through Branding Mag, which was a big deal. I went by myself. I was young, I didn’t know what to expect. And I met this agency called Sapient Nitro that ended up getting bought by Publicis. Yeah, and, and they totally believed in the vision. And originally they wanted to onboard me, but I told them, you know, I, I have Branding Mag. This is what I love, this is what I want to do, but I can consult, I can do, you know, they bought the entire concept of an editorial strategy for a B2B brand, thought leadership. And they paired me with their head of research and insights and we ended up building an entire content ecosystem that took, you know, the brightest minds and, and how they did things, not the products or the services, but how the people executed and thought about and saw things and use that to drive everything. We’re not just talking like, oh, we put some articles on the site, we do some social media. No, I mean like account-based marketing. I mean employer branding, all of it, all of it. We ended up kind of infiltrating into an entire system that I believe some version of it they still use today, the platform for sure is still there. And so, I was there and I kind of played this interim, you know, this kind of external editor in chief for them. And I applied. That’s when I built this entire approach. That was my first application of what I believed to be true. And it took a really good, like they always say, it’s true, they took a really good client to make it happen. And I was, it was, it was right in the end. And so, since then, many people have known me as editor in chief of Branding Mag. It’s true, but I’ve been consulting brands all of these years on editorial, on not templatizing your content, not, not, you know, remembering that people don’t have short attention spans if the content is good. Shifting PR away from the stuff that I see pitched at me every day, which is just trend based, report based. There’s just no distinction. And now it’s even worse. I mean, when you think about AI, how are you going to stand out in this mess?

Minter Dial: Yeah, I wanted to just push back on that one piece or at least clarify something. I heard you say Flavia, which was that AI exacerbated the trend. And what I, what I thought at the time was, what you meant was that AI was doing what you’re doing. What, what you meant actually was AI was just making worse the kind of old fashioned, silly willy kind of branding, repetitive SEO, you know, filled tag words, all this type of stuff, as opposed to thoughtful content, which is what you provide versus what AI provides for sure.

Flavia Barbat: No, it exacerbated the trend that I was kind of up against because I think that, you know, technology, and especially this one is a good example. It reflects our way of thinking, it reflects our, it reflects the average way of doing things. It’s not, it’s not like one upping us. I don’t know how to explain it. It’s, it’s limited by how much, you know, how we think, the values that we have, what we kind of put into it, that’s what it’s going to use. And this is what they tell you all the time. It’s as if it’s supposed to make me feel better. I’m like, that doesn’t make me feel, that doesn’t make me feel better in any way. That means that whatever people were, you know, thinking about, you know, human behavior and what they wanted to read and what they wanted to see and, and how they thought about education and their time. So, many, you know, parallel sides of society, that average concept got built into something that is acting on it at a just massive scale, more than what we were doing before as, as, you know, as not just an industry, but a society as a whole. And so, for me, I’m, you know, I can’t, I almost, I almost can’t be upset about it because finally more and more people realized, you know, what I believe to be true because of the fact that it was just Too much. And this is what tends to happen, you know, if you don’t course correct yourself in your life, you know, the universe will bring you situations that help you shift, because ultimately, it wants you to evolve. It doesn’t want you to stagnate, doesn’t want you to go backwards, either. It wants you to evolve. And the same thing has happened here. We created something that ultimately showed us that, you know, evolution is a little bit more nuanced than just that. And it’s not. It’s not so. So, black and white, like, I can do more, therefore. Great.

Minter Dial: Well, I’m going to hope. I’m going to hope so. But let’s start. I need. I think we need to do a little level setting, which start with brand, so. Because a lot of people, I think, will not still have any real concrete idea as to what brand is. How do you. How does Flavia define brand?

Flavia Barbat: Yeah, it’s. It’s always been a. It’s always been a nice question to. To ponder. More than a qu. More than a question to answer. I think I. I’ve always loved the fact. The thing that drew me to branding when I first learned about it, is I felt like it applied as much to a person as it did to a company, as it did to a community, and as it did to a nation. And once you get to that nation, you know, that national level, I was hooked because I always wanted to, you know, rebrand Romania. And my dream was to go back and things like this, which I did in the end. And I think I made, you know, significant impact and probably will do more in the future. So, this is kind of what. What got me. And I used to think branding was everything. You know, I was sitting there thinking, okay, So, it’s not just the way you look, it’s the way you speak, it’s the way you act. It’s basically any kind. Anything that you put out into the world, any kind of movement you make or. Or, you know, effect that you have or interaction that you. That you. Cause. It’s. I used to feel that it was. That it was everything that. That a business was. It’s not like it was separate or. Or something like this. And. And. And that people are building their brands all the time. Companies are building their brands all the time, from small to large. Every. Everything is ultimately building this. I don’t want to say perception, but it’s a combination of perception, reputation, and I’ve always tried to get people and companies to think with more intention about how they do the things, to realize that this Is true. You know, this painting is being painted of you or of your organization or by whoever it is that sees you or interacts with you. And you want to be as intentional about how you provide them with, let’s say, the colors and the shapes and the. That they’re ultimately using to paint this picture. You want it to be not just consistent, which is a big thing that brand strategists say all the time. You want it to be coherent. You want it to have versatility, and you want the painting to continuously grow in a way that makes sense, you know, that keeps people engaged, that has. This is how I. This is how I see it. And I always loved it. I always loved it for that. And maybe we can talk about this later. But then. Then I realized it wasn’t necessarily branding. That was everything. It was something else.

Minter Dial: But, oh, well, what is something else? You intrigued me. I do think it is everything.

Flavia Barbat: So. It is. It is. But when I got more. So, when I reached a point, let’s say, about a year and a half ago, where I said, okay, I want to apply all of the things that I’ve been teaching others to do to myself, because I had been quietly in the background, you know, and I said, I want to talk more about what I do. I want to teach others how I do the stuff. I want to do courses. I want to do all of these things, you know, and as I started processing through that and realizing that what I had was very much a platform, an approach, a methodology, I. I was uncovering about myself the same things that I help, you know, helped other thought leaders, let’s say, or. Or just people really uncover about themselves and how they do things, which is what really makes us unique. And I realized that branding is nothing without communications. I equivalate it a little bit to that statement. You know, if a tree falls in a forest and no one’s there to hear it, did it make a sound? And so, I’m sit. I was sitting there thinking, you know, yes, branding is everything, but it simply doesn’t exist without comms. It doesn’t get processed. It doesn’t get. It doesn’t get communicated without communications.

Minter Dial: Well, I mean, if I could. One. I mean, one of the ways I think of brand, if I have one word, it’s trust. It’s the ability to have trust. And that’s something you can’t tell someone to have. You need to demonstrate it, And therefore, communications participate. But I mean, if you’re talking about, let’s say, the silent Communication and the intuition, if that’s part of communication, then then I can go with that. But I. I mean, I suppose what I thought, What I liked about your description, Flavio, was you talked about how others perceive it, creating sort of an environment, a thing that others can perceive as opposed to trying to control, which I think is the main issue with most people who think of comms or communication is that they’re trying to control what they say as opposed to letting it be congruent and then perceived.

Flavia Barbat: So, this is. So, this is a. This is a debate. Let’s say that I often have. Because in this period where, you know, everybody’s talking about authentic, everybody’s talking about real, everybody’s talking about raw. I understand the concept, I understand the need, but for me, it feels like we went very far in one extreme of fabricated, you know, messaging. Exactly. A little bit what you’re talking about, the control, the manipulation, you know, the, the perception of marketing that was there from, you know, the 60s, et cetera. And now we’re going in the opposite extreme where we say, ah, the only authentic thing is that which is completely raw, you know, like untouched, unhinged, these kinds of things. This is the, this is, these are the conversations that are being had, especially when you talk about younger generations and all of this stuff. My, as an editor, though, I know the power of being honest but refined. And so, for me, yes, the brand part of the equation is, you know, what you want to be known for, how you want the others to kind of see you and things like that. But communications for me is everything that you communicate. It’s not just what I write. You know, also design communicates the way you build an experience communicates. There’s also. You could write a sentence with, I don’t know, you could write a very positive sentence with bad intentions, and the audience is likely to feel the bad intentions more than the positive sentence. And so, for me, that’s also communications. So, when I’m talking about communications, it’s that and my. The reason why I like to focus on it is because it gives that refinement. I don’t think you need to be. It’s a little bit like what they say. Just because you don’t say everything doesn’t mean that you’re dishonest. You, you pick and, you know, you pick and choose what to say because you have an ultimate purpose. And that purpose is not to, like, ruin the world or lie to everyone. There are So, many organizations that are built by wonderful people that really want to do great Things and okay, there’s a business attached to it. But at the end of the day, my goal is to sit there and. And help people arrive to a perception and a conclusion where I know that my values are true. Therefore, I prefer that they buy from me or that they read my content instead of somebody else’s. Otherwise I would stay silent and that space would be filled by what? By crap, for lack of better words or bad intentions or. So, it’s not so, you know, black and white, in my opinion. And I like this. I like this refinement. This refinement, I think, makes a really big. A really big difference, and people shouldn’t be afraid of that. As if it means, like I, you know, it’s overly done or. I don’t know. It’s an interesting discussion.

Minter Dial: Yeah. Yeah. So, obviously I worked for 16 years for L’Oreal, a company that has a lot of brands in its portfolio, but very few of them, in my opinion, were true brands. And the complication is certainly when you are a large company with many brands, and if people participate in the expression of that brand, the communication of the brand, then how does a conglomerate sustain different brands if all the people, processes and formulas are all the same?

Flavia Barbat: Well, So, if we’re talking about the sub brands and I. I think each piece of the puzzle has its own personality, though, let’s say, I think it’s kind of like you think about it at scale. So, when we do, when we do editorial work, for example, we build an editorial strategy, let’s say it’s the best example that I can. That I can come up with is imagine that if it’s based on everyone that works for you, or if, let’s say, your thought leadership platform is based on a collective of people that are the voices that combined make up the voice of the brand as like a choir, a harmony, then you have to accept to some extent that while you’re doing that process, you will uncover a little bit what the brand is. There is some. There is some push, some decision as to what the brand is based on. The executives or the founders or whoever’s really making the decisions, let’s say. But you must be open to the fact that a brand also evolves and lives based on whoever works for you. They are collectively defining the brand every day, whether you like it or not. So, a rebrand is a very interesting exercise because during a rebrand, if you do it properly, in my opinion, you will either uncover what the brand really is based on who is inside your organization, or decide from top down what you want it to be, but be prepared that you might have to change a lot of the people that are working there in order for it to function moving forward. A lot of people don’t think this way, but when you’re in editorial, this is the mindset you need to have a little bit how you, you know, a newspaper is made up of the voices of its journalists that each have a little bit of their own approach, a little bit of their own style, but collectively they make up, you know, what the New York Times is, for example. So, if you have that for each of the sub brands, let’s say, then if you level that up, then those sub brands become the voices that ultimately make up the conglomerate. It’s a bit similar. It’s just level by level. Depends how specific you go.

Minter Dial: Yeah, well, I mean, I’ve written volumes around this topic, So, we can spend a lot of time. It’s not about my perspective necessarily. I did want to just push into this idea of nuance, or let’s say, the subtlety of your communication and the refinement that you talk about, especially in a world where there’s So, much communication happening. It’s been my observation that nuance often gets lost in the cloud of streaming and noise that’s out there. So, how does, how does, how do you, let’s say, negotiate or argue with a brand about dealing with nuance and refinement when clickbait, screaming headlines, you know, crazy, crazy stuff is the daily method that most companies are employing.

Flavia Barbat: Yeah, I found, I found that nuance is most easily identified in longer content. I think you can imagine. Yes. So, if you have a little bit more time, if you have a little bit more space, all of a sudden you can get a better feel for the writer, for the subtleties. You start to understand the style. You start to. Which is not as long of a process as people think it is for readers. They’re pretty intriguing intuit, you know, as people have similar behaviors and structures inside themselves and they react to those, to those, let’s say, immediate perceptions of. Of who’s behind the content, what the content is trying to say.

Minter Dial: But if I may, I would say that very many people are no longer reading books. I mean, there’s certainly enough data to show that the reading of books is diminished. So, long form, if that’s the sort of the supreme example, is there. So, a lot of people, in terms of that subtlety piece, are waiting for it to happen within the first six seconds because they’re used to video, and we’ve created an environment, a consumption of headlines as opposed to the patience of reading into long form. So, it feels like it has to be a very specific type of brand and, and client who’s able to go with you and I, and I’m not trying to push you into a niche, but I trying to just because I write long form all the time. So, I’m really into it. However, I’ve observed that the reading, the patience to. Even with good writing and a good copy, you know, copy editor and a good tagline, whatever, just there are fewer people have that sort of sit around and I mean I can just, I suppose you can listen to Joe Rogan for three hours, but that’s. Anyway, so, So, talk to us. How, how you manage to get clients, what type of clients they are, what clients are you looking for to make for the optimal transformation through your style, your thought leadership?

Flavia Barbat: I think that a lot more, I think a lot more brands and clients fit the mold than they think they do. I think, and I was giving the example of long form content just to say that we don’t expect the brands to change overnight and to stop what they’re doing immediately, but we try to start in a way that makes sense for them and makes sense for us So, that we can prove the concept. So, that often means that, for example, you want sales and you want finance to be on your side from the get go because this stuff is not cheap. We all know this. So, generally you work with the sales team who by the way, are rarely involved in marketing discussions. So, when marketers are building their materials and stuff like that, they don’t go to sales and say, look, what do you need? Like what do you need? No, they create all these materials and they go here, please use this. And then they complain that sales doesn’t use them. So.

Minter Dial: And then sales, of course is complaining that marketing doesn’t know what the hell’s happening on the street.

Flavia Barbat: Exactly, exactly. So, what you do is you go to sales who by the way, love good content and they love long. Like they love the kind of stuff that they can use to explain to a client, to present to a client, to show, you know, to go. Here’s a follow up email because there’s a super interesting article related to what we were saying the other day. Things like this, they love good stuff that they can use to foster that relationship. So, imagine the people that are most involved in fostering relationships with your clients love this content. Point number one.

Minter Dial: Point number B2B world. That’s mostly in the B2B world.

Flavia Barbat: But then we’ll get. I’ll show you for B2C as well. I know B2B is the easier one to see for sure. And this is why we started there at the beginning and why a lot of the work that we still do is in B2B. This is true. So, you see this a lot in manufacturing. You see this a lot of, you know, those are, let’s say, the most, most interesting ones because they were always the less in terms of brand, in terms of, you know, they weren’t like the sexy brand that everybody wanted to work. Yeah, that everybody wanted to work with. But I love engineers. I love them. I love how much they know and how passionate they are. Like, that’s what you want. You’re a good editor. You can turn whatever they say into something people can consume, but that’s those. There’s something about them. So, I’ve always loved working with engineers, but that’s a side point. So, we go into sales and we go and we work with them. We create the content, we show that the content can deliver on sales. Point number two. And then you slowly, slowly realize and help them understand that this is part of the brand strategy. You’re filling a gap. Because what people don’t realize, what brand leaders don’t realize, is that they bring in a, you know, a strategy company that builds their brand strategy. They have these guidelines, you know, that are 99 design and maybe like 1 1% if that verbal messaging, narrative, etc. And they expect that from that small amount of input there is a marketing and communications team on the other side that has to produce thousands of pieces of content, just them. I’m not even talking about the others. And you think that that small input is going to help them create everything that they need to create. And then you wonder why people are repetitive or why they, they’re not creative. Well, because they don’t fully understand who the brand is or what it wants to say. So, they’re not going to go out on a limb, start, you know, filling in the gap. And so, we end up using everything that we’ve learned from the thought leaders to fill in that gap, to be more specific about the narrative and the messaging and to say, okay, what is it that we really want to be known for in this geography, to this target audience in this department, in this division? And we start to build out the narrative and, and the messaging very specifically, I mean, to the point, to the point where nothing gets created in terms of comms, marketing, brand comms, whatever you want to call it. Nothing gets created outside of those parameters. And bonus, you end up associating everything into an ecosystem that is global. So, you don’t replicate things anymore, So, you don’t have, I don’t know, redundancy. You know, you have somebody in Japan doing something that was already figured out in California, just as an example. It’s, you must build this kind of. Yeah, it’s an, it’s an ecosystem that flows. But the only way you can get there is you can’t go into a client and kind of scare them off and say, oh, we’re going to revamp the entire way you do comms, because it will just freak them out. So, you start with these smaller projects and technique. Most of the time, sales and account based marketing is like a really good place to start for the reasons that I mentioned. And then they realize that the editorial thing really matters. It builds relationships. It can do the same with their audience on a wider scale or with the public. If they’re a public facing company, you know, trading on the stock market or with their investors or at events or all of a sudden this, this editorial mindset, the principles and the values that you have been kind of teaching incrementally, the brand leaders start to realize that it applies to everything. And this is what I mean, that you can infiltrate your entire way of operating with the right intention, with the right values that drive the way you produce, the way you create, the way you act, the way you speak and people feel that. And as I said before, this long form thing, it’s. I care less about how long it is, as I do about, you know, its reason for existence, first of all. But I focus on long form because I have to break this mindset that people think that everybody has short attention spans now, really. And if we’re talking about nuance, nobody is waiting for nuance in the first six minutes. They’re waiting for fast food in the first six minutes. Not nuance. Those that really want nuance. Yeah, those that really want nuance, they’re going further and they’re going deeper and they’re asking more questions. And, and, and, and this, this also creates the expectation of companies that they accept that it’s better to have quality relationships with maybe a smaller percentage of the population than it is to continuously chase these shallow interactions and relationships with a larger percentage. It’s just a rat race. It makes no sense. It’s exhausting.

Minter Dial: Right? This is the challenge for B2C companies who are trying to get the next billion customers. And, and you’re not going to get them with a large book or, you know, that’s true. They need junk food, generally speaking. Or at least that’s, that’s the approach that go. I mean the original problem there is trying to have 7 billion customers. It means you’re trying to please everybody and which means at the end of the day that you are nobody or you, you’re not going to have anything that stands out. Definition wise. Wanted to I. Because time is going to run out. I know, but one of them, one of the questions is with regard to the, the voice of, let’s say the CEO and, or the founder. Because it feels for me in my experience that if the founder and. Or the CEO, if you know, some sort of, you know, jetted in or, or someone who’s grown through the ranks who has that role, it becomes incumbent on them to absolutely spearhead that communication. Which means. Because every single word, every single movement of the hand is going to be observed by the employees at first, by the shareholders and, and by any other stakeholder that sees them. So, how do you approach the boss, if you will, with regard to your approach? These are people who may or may not have that vision of brand that you’re talking about. They may or may not think that they have the time to communicate on LinkedIn or use brand stories in their moments because they’re about efficiencies and getting shareholder returns.

Flavia Barbat: Yeah, it’s. And here I’m probably going to say something that may or may not get me in trouble, but, but here we are.

Minter Dial: Can I do a drum roll?

Flavia Barbat: Who. I think that, I think that CEOs and the larger the company, the worse this is worse. Like not that they’re doing something wrong, it’s just they’re So, limited in what they can say. They’re So, media trained and I’m not blaming them because, you know, it’s a little bit like complaining about somebody that’s running a country. You know, who are you to sit there and, and judge what it’s like to have that kind of responsibility? It’s, it’s unfathomable. You know, anyways, for me they are very within strict parameters to the point where I don’t focus on top executives for this reason. I will always start down and work my way up. I will always go for the unfound, uncovered, undiscovered, you know, bright minds around the organization that are willing to participate, that have the time to participate, that can help prove the method, et cetera, et cetera, rather than working. Because how shall I say this the there, there’s So, much fear to be specific in what executives say or for them to really have like a strong opinion that they can say whatever they want. It won’t make a difference to my specific strategy. I see it will always be in some way aligned because it’s focused on that very high level narrative that will exist regardless. I need to.

Minter Dial: Presumably, if you’re talking about a Richard Branson and Virgin or a Anita Ruddock and the Body Shop, the content and nuances that you’re going to be talking about are derived from them, even if they are not necessarily following your narrative.

Flavia Barbat: Yeah, this is true because they’ve ultimately influenced the brand narrative immensely. So, I’m not saying to build the brand narrative from zero. I’m saying what happens after that. I can’t just leave you. For me, it’s, it’s unimaginable to be a brand, you know, brand strategist and leave a company with, like I said, a guy, a guidelines PDF that is 90 pages long with two pages on tone of voice and say, okay, like from now on, you know, you have everything that you need. But the brand narrative continues to live on, you know, and it’s probably been influenced. If you have a founder and a CEO that really is that involved, that really is that vocal. For sure, they have influenced a large part of whatever that foundational, you know, brand story or brand voice is from there. But you need to see where it goes from there, because you cannot. The whole organization doesn’t depend only on that one person. And for sure they can command a lot of the brand perception, but not all of it, and not forever either. So, you got to think long term, which means that you need to involve everybody else in doing it right and thinking very intentionally about what they’re communicating and how it’s being received and really being audience first. You know, you have to, how should I say? It’s not that it’s not about you. You give the best that you can give, but you give the best that you can give because that’s what you want for the audience. That’s the responsibility that you feel. That’s what generates the kind of trust that you’re saying, in my opinion. And you know, you’re right, say that brand is trust. It’s true, but this is what generates it. I don’t think the fake shallow thing is going to work for much longer, even for B2C brands, which we didn’t really get a chance to talk about. But I’ve had So, many conversations And so, many ideas around how B2C brands can create editorial strategies of education of, you know, instead of a. A supermarket, for example, telling me, you know, we source the freshest fruits from local farmer, et cetera, et cetera. I. And probably the more and more I look around other people, and I hate to say younger generations because I don’t like this generational thing. I really think that it’s just a lot of people in general are going in the trend of. I like it when somebody can explain to me how something works, where they can give me, how should I say, where you gift me the aha moment where you’ve managed to communicate to me how something works to the point where I understand it and I feel better about myself and I know that I’ve learned something new and I can go show off to my friends and I can tell all of these little, like, immediate, you know, behaviors, human behaviors, you can tap into that, but for the right reasons, because you want them to better understand processes, workflows, how the world works, how even how a supermarket gets its fresh fruits from local farmers. You can create editorial content that is interesting for people based on that. And it doesn’t have to be, you know, a super entertaining, short, clippy bite of content. No, people will stick around to understand because there are So, many fascinating things about how people do what they do that just have not even been remotely touched. So, for people to tell me it doesn’t work, I’m like, have you tried it? Because if you haven’t, then you’re just basing everything that you think off of what trend reports. And let me tell you something about trend reports. The people that do research, you’re not there to see the raw data. For example, I think research benefits the researchers the most because they see everything, but ultimately they decide what to show the rest of the world. So, I only receive a portion of the truth that in and of itself, for me is enough for. For me to decide, you know, I don’t really want to look at reports. I prefer to just base it off of my own experience, my own observations. That seems a little bit more. More trustworthy, in my opinion than whatever somebody, because then it just cascades, you know, then you use the report to justify your opinion in some presentation where you’re trying to convince somebody and that behavior just continues, continues. You know, it kind of just ripples, ripples through.

Minter Dial: Well, I mean, at large organizations that I’ve had the chance to work with, they. They typically have that sort of data centric approach and, and it’s about, I think, tapping into your intuition. I. I had a Mark Schaefer on my podcast recently. I don’t know if you know him, but he’s sort of a guru of marketing. Not personally out in, in the estates. And oftentimes I get into the conversation around meaningfulness and purpose, and I was wondering to what extent you feel that that is a necessary component of branding or not, or at least in your conversation with clients, because you may have your own opinion, but in the conversation with clients does that. Where are we on the, on the scale of it’s. It’s 100% where we need to be or zero? I don’t really give a dead toss about it.

Flavia Barbat: But here we’re talking about purpose. Like you need to have some kind of higher ulterior motive for what you’re doing. That’s, you know, like your influence on benefiting the world or that’s how.

Minter Dial: I mean, I ran Redken for four years and our purpose, or our mission was to earn a better living, live a better life. And that ran through everything we did. And live a better life was the one that raises eyebrows because we were just selling shampoos. And despite this, let’s say niche, where we were selling shampoos and color to hairdressers, we really all, from the very inside of the company, through all our value chain, had this idea of living a better life and earning a better living. So, that was our purpose and mission. But it’s certainly very far from what most companies really get into with regard to the purpose. You know, if it has one, it might exist on the front of the annual report or, you know, written on the door behind the receptionist, but it really rarely is expressed throughout like everything in the brand and then the sub component of that is meaningfulness that it has to have meaningfulness. And I relate that to purpose. With a properly purpose LED brand, it needs to be meaningful to every stakeholder in their way, to them. But that’s. That’s my gestalt. That’s what I preach. And I don’t always get good ears for that. And I was just wondering to what extent is part of your approach and at what extent your clients receive it.

Flavia Barbat: So, a lot to unpack. First of all, if there is, if there is a brand that has a purpose like you described it, and it manages to create an entire organization of people like you described them that all live and breathe that purpose, well done. Like really, I applaud you. There can be multiple reasons why that has worked. One of them can also be that maybe people don’t feel they understand their purpose in their own lives, And so, they associate heavily with something that gives them purpose based on the job that they do every day. So, there are, again, you know, sides and sides, advantages and disadvantages to the thought process. Now, I don’t think that every brand, let’s say, of crackers, needs to be out there saving the world. This is like, I really don’t. If that’s what purpose is, then I’m not mega for it. I honestly believe that even if you were to be a company. That said, I am in this to build the best product I possibly can because I think technology is cool, and that’s really just my thing, and everybody lives and breathes that. And you communicate that with intention and clarity and honesty, people will buy in. I think it’s more, like I said, the way you communicate that matters, and the. You know, the. The understanding of what your values are and how those translate into, like, the intention that you have every time you take an action that matters more than what you’re doing it for. If it’s about aligning people, getting customers, building internal culture, et cetera, I don’t think everybody needs to be saving the oceans. Or, I mean, in my personal life, of course, I tell people, in your personal life, don’t throw trash in the ocean. I think that’s just common sense. I know it’s not for a lot of people, but of course there. Yes, but for an organization and the relationships that they have with their audiences, for me, what’s missing is honesty. It’s not purpose that’s missing. It’s not. It’s honesty. It’s clarity. It’s. It’s transparency in the way we communicate, and it’s a better understanding of who the heck is actually working there and how do they think and how do they see the world? Because just because you plaster me like a nice message that sounds great repetitively all over the Internet or on my TV or at an event or. Okay, maybe you do. Maybe you do something interesting or quirky on social media, and all of a sudden I’m engaged for five seconds. But does that really mean that I believe you? Does that really mean that I understand you? Does that really mean, like, customer lifetime value? No, it doesn’t. It doesn’t at all. So, I’m more interested in that. That’s why I push you a little bit for the long term. Not because I believe only in the long term, but because I’m trying to rebalance the scales first, and then we can Earn the right to, you know, dabble here and there and do a little bit of everything. But right now, it’s just exactly like your purpose example. It’s So, far in one direction that everybody’s doing it for all the wrong reasons.

Minter Dial: So, I want to finish, if you will, Flavia, on your work you’re doing for Romania. I, I, I’m, I’m writing a new book, and a lot of, a lot of elements that I see troublesome, like you’re mentioning that person who doesn’t have any sense or meaningfulness in their life, and they, they just take it from selling crackers or whatever they’re doing at work, because work can be meaningful and even if it’s just putting food on the plate. And one of the sort of problematic areas of identity is your nation, because it’s very quickly mixed up with patriotism, nationalism, and it can go further. So, one of the examples that I write about, I’m quite Russophile, is the strength of the Russian culture and the Russian nationality, and obviously not a popular country for many people. But I, I think one of the extraordinary power of a good brand is that it’s not popular with everybody.

Flavia Barbat: True.

Minter Dial: It’s, it’s popular with the people that want to be with it. And so, what I, what I write about is how Russia has kept its soul and spirit through multiple types of regimes, because it really was started, they really started contemplating a specific Russian identity with intelligentsia in the beginning of the 19th century. That’s when they, they sort of took hold of it. And then it had to live through the Communist regime and, and the, you know, the people who have been running Russia since, and it’s still there. So, that’s sort of preamble. How are you working with Romania’s culture and Romania’s nationhood? Because as you explained to me before we went on, on air, Romanian, the language existed at the same time as Latin, which I’m pretty sure anyone who’s listening will not have thought about that or not known that. And even I, who, you know, mix up, you know, 10 words of Romanian, didn’t know that. I mean, not that I’m all knowledgeable, but I, you know, I’ve done a little bit more. I’ve been there four or five times, and I didn’t know that. So, how, what is your approach and how are you trying to help craft this Romanian nationhood?

Flavia Barbat: So, when I finally went back there after 22, So, I had been going every year. I mean, like, actually I moved back there, which was my ultimate dream. I said I wouldn’t go back empty handed. I went back with Branding Mag with, you know, a company, a consultancy, and I opened and I opened shop there for a few years. I think it was maybe four or five or five years. We did a huge conference around branding in Romania because I believed, like I told you earlier, that the principles of branding can help you rethink and reshape a little bit how you see your country, how you see, you know, what it is, how it presents itself, its purpose, et cetera, things like this. And so, I was very, very adamant about giving this education to Romania because I believe that it could change. And I went on stages, I went on tv, I made people cry, you know, because I was the one that came back that had this vision. And I have to say that what I didn’t expect is that the mindset that is there has been So, much infiltrated by a lot of different influences that are not our own. So, you talk about Russia and the first thing that came to my mind when you were describing the power of that brand, the first thing that came to my mind is, yes, but they never sold out. Like, I almost feel like there was always this feeling of, you know, no matter what, I am not going to sell out. And this could be true for any brand, even a brand that sells out on its principles, to do some kind of short form, engaging content on social media. It’s the same concept.

Minter Dial: Yeah, to win some more customers.

Flavia Barbat: To win some more customers or just get some, you know, some eyeballs or all of that. It’s the same, it’s the same concept of selling out, in my opinion. And the thing that Romania unfortunately did over time is that it did sell out and it lost its identity. So, now it’s very much. And now we’re getting into, you know, I know it’s not political, it’s just a fact. It’s very much controlled by the us, by a lot of various influences that have nothing really to do with us. You add on top of that, you know, the EU and the fact that now it has whatever, you know, power it has over everybody else. And all of a sudden it’s this amalgamation where people don’t really know who they are anymore. And so, out of some kind of fear, I think, of the unknown, I saw them very much confused as to how to display their worth, contemplate their value. And, and I must say that on a personal level, it was very disappointing in the end. And so, I reached, after many years, a point where I felt that I had been Pulled in, like, almost sucked into that environment So, much that I needed to step out for a breather. And so, I ended up moving out of the country to an island I, you know, isolated in the Canary Islands for several years because I was like, I need to get out of here. And I don’t think I’ve ever explained it quite like that. So, now there it is. It’s out there. And that doesn’t in any way mean that I don’t want to influence Romania, but what I realized is that there is So, much at work there that I must come back stronger, more powerful than before, and I almost must craft, you know, build, like, the biggest boat I possibly can to then, you know, harbor as many people as possible with whatever vision or impact I can have in the future, and that I won’t be able to have that impact at that scale if I don’t take care of myself first. And so, I went through this personal journey, And so, now I am contemplating how to go back. I still believe not to go back, like, to live there, but to go back in terms of, you know, to actually have some kind of presence there with what we do. Branding Mag is still housed in Romania, So, I moved it there. It is there. I always wanted Branding Mag to be a success of that nation, and Serbia is part of that story, because for us, you know, we feel very. We feel very calm. You know, we feel a lot of commonalities in that area of the world. So, for me, it was like, you know, I just don’t want. I don’t want it to be in the UK I don’t want it to be in the US I want it to be here. I want it to be in Romania and to be a success story from there. And so, it’s still there, and I still. I plan on keeping it there and having all of the success that we drive go there. And ultimately in the future, continuing to build the team, bringing back the conference that we had to stop because of COVID and just trying to see how I can affect as much change in mindset as I can without going into politics, which, ironically, everybody started asking me.

Minter Dial: At some point, well, I’m going to do the same. I mean, you wanted to be president. I think you should be president.

Flavia Barbat: No, correction is I wanted to be queen, but that’s another. No, no, but people were really.

Minter Dial: Royalty has its privileges.

Flavia Barbat: Ay. Yeah. You know, all jokes. All jokes aside, I’m not afraid of responsibility, you know, and I was always telling people, I. I love that. I love that country. I’ve loved it since I was 6 years old, confused as to why my parents had brought me to that place called America, crying, saying that I wanted to go back. And I kept that desire for 20, 22 years until I made it back. Like that was my dream. Everything I did in the US was to get back to Romania, imagine. And so, my goal is definitely to have impact there, to have impact in a multitude of ways. But I don’t know, the moment people start asking you about politics, the moment you have your entire conference website hacked, like DDoS level hacked, the day of the event because of what you say publicly about how much you believe in the country is the moment you sit there and say, okay, there’s something much bigger here than what I realized, you know, than what my 15 year old mind could have imagined dreaming of this moment. And so, I really needed to, you know, you need a better game plan, you need to step back, you need to reassess.

Minter Dial: I mean, So, many people that go into politics come with ideals, but they don’t really understand the real politic, the reality and the hardness and the, the blockages that have been historically there, the secrets that were untold and, and it’s, and oftentimes a disappointment for a lot of the idealists that come in there. But it does feel like you’re on an important mission for Romania, which I, in my book, when I’m writing, I believe is, is necessary for pretty much every country. So, I, I, I had the chance to participate in being part of many countries like you, United States, the United Kingdom, France. I’ve lived in many countries and it feels for me that pretty much every nation is under siege, at least for what its identity is, because it’s no longer really even allowable in a world that has to be inclusive, because inclusive means not being exclusive. And to the point that you made about Rusia, which is that they never sold out, or really there’s no impression that they sold out and have that sort of backbone, a firm shared understanding of who we are, where we come from. And I feel like even if there’s diversity in a nation that’s fine yet, dude, should we all pay allegiance to what that flag stands for? And I feel like most countries are flying blind and within it, it’s citizens that are in dire need of feeling like they belong then dissipate into other communities that they think are meaningful but truly aren’t. And therefore, the despondency, the anxiety, the depression, because they don’t actually have true meaningfulness in the lives and I believe one of my, you know, rants on stage is, you know, being part of a country is one of the highest levels of belonging.

Flavia Barbat: Hmm. I love not. I mean, So, what you, what you described there reminds me a lot of the American model, which I think that a lot of countries are adopting American models of everything. So, when I was growing up in the US and I must say, I can see, I could see this because I was being raised very Romanian at home, and then I felt like I had to put, like this mask on when I was going out. Very, very different culture, like, very, very different cultures in, in every possible way. And what I remember telling my parents from when I was little is, I don’t understand how this works. Like, I get it. You know, economically speaking, it makes sense to bring people from all over the world and tell them, okay, you have to be, you know, inclusive, politically correct, et cetera, because it forces them, for lack of better words, to work together and it makes for a better economy. I get that. But from a societal perspective, what I felt as a child and even in university, it was the same. There was no freedom of speech. I couldn’t say, like, what I had to say.

Minter Dial: There’s one speech you’re free to say.

Flavia Barbat: It’s incredible. No, but, but really, I couldn’t go to somebody and say, listen, you don’t like me, I don’t like you, it’s okay, we don’t have to be friends. Like, we don’t have to agree on everything. It was, it was just. I didn’t even know how to explain it because it seemed So, bizarre for me. And so, that’s where the issue lies, is that societally speaking, we’re not all meant to be, like, respectful of each other. Sure. This is what. But, but we’re not talking about being forced to be respectful. We’re talking about being forced to be friends. Well, hold on a second. Then you wonder why there’s shallowness, you wonder why there’s, you know, you wonder why people all of a sudden support a leader that you didn’t expect. That kind of brings out all of that pent up, you know, animosity that, guess what, your structure and your conformism kind of created from children from when they were little, these, these kinds of things. And so, now you see that happening in all the other countries as well. And all of a sudden nobody can say anything anymore. So, another reason why to talk about communications, voice, have brands that really want to stand for something, because I agree with you, you must stand for something. And not everybody needs to like you, but you do it with respect. You know, I think that’s, that’s the ultimate goal in life is to feel like you’ve had impact and you’ve done something remarkable, but have never, ever stepped on somebody else’s, you know, liberties, rights, you know, toes, et cetera. That you did something that you believe in. You have a strong community behind you. You have, you know, you feel like you’ve done something, but, but with zero, zero feeling that you’ve done something against, you know, against other people in that way. There is that that can exist, but for some reason, nobody explores that, that nuance. To go back to what we were.

Minter Dial: Talking about, the terminology I used to use is being the gatekeeper and Redken, which was again, one of the, one of the brands at L’Oreal, I considered this idea that we would hire people from other brands within L’Oreal, but only if they were happy to join our tribe, because our tribe was a certain way. And at the gate, we said, well, if you want to join us, this is who we are, and if you don’t like us, totally cool that we don’t want to be liked by everybody. But this is how we roll. Then once you get through the gate, then we allowed for total expression of the individual because they adopted at the gate the values and beliefs that we had of the brand. And of course there’s nuance within that because not everyone had the same exact interpretation, but the same should happen at a country level. And, and, and, and that gatekeeping, I think that’s the, the crucial missing piece, because if you don’t know what your gate stands for, then how do you control ins and outs and, And so, your role, I think your need is big. So, once you finished Romania, go fix the rest of the world. We don’t have, we don’t have time Flavia for more, unfortunately. But it’s been a great chat. I’ve enjoyed it very much. So, how can people obviously go read more about what you’re up to, hire you as some consultant to make their brands popular and nuanced. What’s some of the links that people can run to?

Flavia Barbat: Oh, for sure, you can go. Well, my LinkedIn is definitely a good place to start. I always, I always. I’m not always there, but I do my best. I know you had a different experience with that. Sometimes I miss some things, but most of the time I’m very responsive. So, I think LinkedIn is a great place. BrandingMag. BrandingMag is growing in So, many ways. Like I said, courses, books. We’re going to go into publishing books and things like this. So, definitely Branding Mag is always a good place to start. Masterclasses. There’s So, much good stuff there and it always runs through me. So, if people trust my ability to publish quality content, then you should know that everything has run through my fingers in one way or so. I hope that gives it the additional. Some additional integrity. Although for sure, Branding Mag has a lot of its own. I think these are the most. Or you can email me, really. I mean, anybody’s more than welcome. Flavia brandingmag.com I’m always open to ideas, thoughts, feedback, projects. I’m. Yeah, I’m the kind of person that is very, very dynamic, let’s say I’m always trying new things. I’m always trying to. And now that, like I said, I’m doing it more, more publicly than ever before. And let’s say I used to have a little bit of a fear for standing for something, since we were just talking about that. But actually, very recently, I realized that I kind of had to let it go. So, I did, and here we are.

Minter Dial: If I could. It comes with age. You finally into peace with who you are, or not, by the way. But it’s difficult to know who you are young. So, it’s normal that it comes with time, with experience, with mistakes, and then little by little, it crystallizes. And then you have to be prepared to take off the mask and then just plunge in. Flavia Multimesk.

Flavia Barbat: Multimeskio.

Minter Dial: Here we go.