Minter Dialogue with Mark Schaefer

I had the pleasure of speaking with Mark Schaefer about his latest book, “Audacious: How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World”. This is the fourth time I’ve had Mark on the show. In this episode, we delved into the importance of breaking bad rules for good reasons in marketing and how to stand out in a world dominated by AI-generated content. Mark emphasized the need for brands to create meaningful experiences and foster emotional connections with their audience. We discussed the value of word-of-mouth marketing, the power of awe in creating shared experiences, and the importance of play and humor in business. Mark also highlighted the need for brands to show up authentically in their communities and the potential pitfalls of purpose-driven marketing. Throughout our conversation, we explored the balance between being bold and maintaining ethical standards in marketing. Mark’s insights on recapturing childlike creativity and institutionalizing play in business were particularly enlightening. Overall, this episode offered valuable perspectives on how marketers can thrive in an AI-dominated landscape by embracing audacity and human connection.

Please send me your questions — as an audio file if you’d like — to nminterdial@gmail.com. Otherwise, below, you’ll find the show notes and, of course, you are invited to comment. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to rate it here.

To connect with Mark Schaefer:

• Check out Mark’s main site here: BusinessesGrow
• Find/buy Mark’s latest book, “Audacious,” here
• Find/follow Mark Schaefer on LinkedIn
• Find/follow Mark Schaefer on X (formerly Twitter)

Other mentions/sites:

• Jonah Berger’s book, “Contagious: on Amazon here
• Liquid Death water
• Prior podcast episodes with Mark Schaefer: 2015 Online Branding; 2021 Cumulative Advantage; 2023 Belonging to the Brand

Further resources for the Minter Dialogue podcast:

Meanwhile, you can find my other interviews on the Minter Dialogue Show in this podcast tab, on Megaphone or via Apple Podcasts. If you like the show, please go over to rate this podcast via RateThisPodcast! And for the francophones reading this, if you want to get more podcasts, you can also find my radio show en français over at: MinterDial.fr, on Megaphone or in iTunes. Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s (please excuse the quality of the sound!).

Transcription courtesy of Flowsend.ai, an AI full-service for podcasters

Minter Dial: Mr. Schaefer, number four on the Minter Dialogue. 10 years ago was the first one. And so, I, here I was thinking, well, how was, how am I going to start this one to start a little bit different? Mr. Schaefer, number four.

Mark Schaefer: Number four in your program, number one in your hearts.

Minter Dial: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So, the way I was going to introduce you, Mark, because hopefully some people have been listening, have actually listened to all of these. And you’re going to describe yourself in a moment, but I was going to go, Mr. Schaefer, given the way everybody gave you praise about this book, you’re not just Mr. Schaefer, you’re Mr. Marketing Shit-stirrer, because you are breaking boundaries, breaking the status quo in So, many ways. And bravo for your latest book, Audacious in your own words, Mark, for those who skimpily don’t know you good lore, tell us, who is Mark Schaefer?

Mark Schaefer: I think I’m a teacher is the way I describe myself. I mean, that’s really my heart. I’m, you know, I do consulting, I’m a keynote speaker, I’m a blogger, I have a podcast. And you know, this is my 11th book and I think every interaction I have is sort of an opportunity to teach. It’s a good position to be in.

Minter Dial: Most certainly is. I think of myself as a student. Isn’t that funny? So, I, I will take in my, this, my very studently position. Listen, great to have you on the show, of course. And this book, it, it obviously has, I mean, you, the way you wrote it, I, I can’t remember. Oh yeah, it was Brian Solis who was trying to ally form with content, style, substance. And it feels very much that that was part of your approach to this book.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah, every time I write a book, I, I challenge myself to make it as bold and beautiful as I can. I mean, I take it very, very seriously. You know, I’m disappointed in most business books today. Most business books today are like a, a blog post and 240 pages of examples. But you know, I, I, I think to me a book is, is, is part of my legacy. And, And so, I was trying to push the edges and especially this time because it’s a book called Audacious. So, it would better be Audacious. Right. And you know, one of the things that’s unusual about this book that sort of codifies or demonstrates the themes in the book is the COVID itself, which is a QR code. When you hover over the QR code, what we did is we uploaded the book to AI and Had AI generate abstract images based on stories in the book. And when you hover over the QR code, the COVID changes constantly. We call it the infinity cover, and it’s never been done before. And this was such a challenge, Mentor, because the publishing industry, I mean, it’s. You can’t push the boundaries in the publishing industry. Basically. They’ve been basically doing everything the same way for 200 years. And I mean, we. We looked at So, many different ideas, and we just couldn’t do any of them because of the limitations, you know, in publishing or in distribution or the cost. But we came up with this idea, and people seem to love it.

Minter Dial: Well, And so, they should. And fun. Not just the COVID but within the book. You have all these QR codes and things to discover. So, you know, you talk about how an experience is everything, and you’ve made the book that. So, congratulations, Mike, for showing up beautifully in this way.

Mark Schaefer: It means a lot.

Minter Dial: So, I mean, there’s So, many things that I enjoyed about the book I didn’t know about your great grandmother, who was a vaudeville dancer on roller skates.

Mark Schaefer: He was.

Minter Dial: Yeah, that’s a. That’s a picture. A great aunt. Snake charmer.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah.

Minter Dial: I mean, I thought that’s what all marketers were called and got it come by naturally. Yeah. And your great grandfather was a champion juggler. And I’ve had a juggler on my podcast, so. So. Street juggler, to be exact. Anyway, So, you said that audacity skipped my generation. Is. Is that true?

Mark Schaefer: Well, I mean, I wouldn’t put myself in that pantheon of audacity. I will say, though, as I reflect on my career, my career was one big experiment. It really was. I mean, I pushed the edges everywhere I go. Everything I’ve done, I was just plowing ahead in some new way. And so, I do think, even though I am a college educator and I might not seem like the most audacious guy in my career, I’ve always been taking risks and trying to be the first at. At something. So, I do have that heritage.

Minter Dial: Well, it does bring up a thought for me, which is going in all guns blazing as a cowboy into a corporate environment, saying that you want to completely shake it up, make it all happen. Well, there’s a whole lot of chances that you’ve got tripwire everywhere put down by the rest of the company.

Mark Schaefer: I love that analogy. Exactly right. Hidden tracks.

Minter Dial: Yeah. The point that I was going to make is that sometimes audacity cloaked in normal is what it takes in order for the audacity to take.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah, this is a huge issue. And I address it. I have a specific chapter at the end of the book called the most important chapter in the book. And reason is, is because all through the book, I’m encouraging people, inspiring people to be bold, to stay one step ahead of the bots. And then by the end of the book, you’re probably thinking, okay, I get it, but how do I do this without losing my job? And culture is everything. I mean, your marketing is culture, the organizational culture. That’s how you’re going to show up in the world. And so, I dress it from three different perspectives. One, if you’re leading a company and you want to be more bold, if you’re in a company and you want to be more bold, or if you’re an outsider, like a freelancer, and you want to convince customers to be more bold, and it’s exactly as you said, you can’t go in guns a blazing. But you do have to push a boundary somewhere, whether it’s in your company or even in your career. And there’s a great case study in that check chapter about a woman who is probably the most acclaimed creative director, at least in America right now, and that is Bianca Guimaras. Bianca started a small agency in Brazil and she realized, you know, to really achieve her dream, she had to move to New York. She moved to New York and she worked for a big traditional agency and realized that the obstacle to the greatest work is fear and that she had to take risks. She had to take risks, just enough of a risk for her to be, to succeed. And then she became Bianca, the person who won that award, or Bianca the person who won that contract. Then all of a sudden, it gives you a little more license and a little more liberty to ex. To have that creative freedom. And then ultimately she started her own agency. And the core, the core idea behind the culture is fearlessness, that she, she said, we will protect the, the, the dangerous ideas. We’re not going to be afraid to lose an account or to lose, you know, a job. That, that’s what we’re going to be known for. We’re going to be known for the best, boldest creative work. And the only way to do that is to operate without fear.

Minter Dial: Well, certainly when you’re an outsider approaching a large organization, all of a sudden, I mean, assuming you’ve got some credibility, you have the ability to push boundaries that people within don’t have. And so, having that sense of risk is really just about the one contract, as opposed to my entire salary or at least the bigger feeling within that and where I wanted to go with this is that I feel we have been promoting for the last decade or So, a risk-free environment. Oh, yes, and, and a consequential rise in anxiety because we don’t actually know how to deal with shit. And so, the idea of, of, of encouraging, embracing risk is everything but. The way the entire society is, starting with our schools, the way we run society, sports, we should, we shouldn’t be allowed to contact. We had. Now they’re promoting contactless rugby in England. I mean, some professors are. And nothing against professors, but Mark. But you know, sorry, but this idea of, of confronting risk, well, it doesn’t seem like we’re allowing risk to take place.

Mark Schaefer: You know, there’s two, there’s two interesting things about what you say. And one I sort of have an answer to and the other one I don’t. And the one I sort of have an answer to is in the marketing world at least, we have this infrastructure in place that rewards boring. You know, we, we, you know, it’s like, I mean, just the, I mean, one of the big ideas I have in this book, So, the book really is about, in this world where AI is nipping at the heels of our skill sets and our jobs, where do we persist? Where could we thrive? One of the examples I give in the book is word of mouth marketing. This is getting people to talk to each other. It’s the purest, most trusted form of marketing, completely unadulterated by AI. We can dwell in this place, we know it works. But how many companies have a line item in their budget for word-of-mouth marketing? Zero.

Minter Dial: Why?

Mark Schaefer: Because it’s not sexy. We can’t win an award for it. Right. How do you have a video about word of mouth marketing that’s going to win something at the festival? So, there’s this, number one, there’s this heritage, this heritage that we have to live up to these expectations. There’s this infrastructure of advertising agencies that do things a certain way, they want to keep them a certain way. We love being wined and dined by the advertising agency. There’s the fear of losing our job. And I think, you know, another point that I address directly in the book is the Bud Light effect, right? So, here we have a company that, you know, if you look at the history of that case study, it really wasn’t a risk. They had been supporting like LGBTQ issues all along. One post on Instagram, you know, really killed the brand for a couple of years at least. And so, there’s this idea of we’re just one post away from being Bud Light. It just sends a shudder through the organization. So, there. So, in terms of the marketing aspect, I think I have a good idea of why we have this infrastructure of dull. There’s also a bigger picture around, you know, let’s think about the impact of social media today compared to taking a risk 20 years ago or 20, 25 years ago. You know, everybody could have their own opinion 25 years ago, but it’s likely that opinion wouldn’t go any farther than your neighborhood or maybe a comment in the local newspaper. And today, just a few people can have a massive megaphone. It’s not really about free speech. Free speech isn’t the issue. It’s amplification is the issue that opinions get distorted because of, you know, because of amplification. And I think. And I, you know, there’s probably other things, but I think compared to 25 years ago; to address your question, I think the fear of social media backlash certainly has an impact on that.

Minter Dial: Well, I mean, in the end of the day, social media is part of it, but I mean, I would say say society as a rule has classified certain subjects as out of bounds. And so, free speech. Well, I’m not even, you know, I think there are many topics we’re not allowed to address for fear of being exclusive because the only thing that works is being inclusive. And yet the crazy shit about that, Mark, is that the idea is not to please everybody, which is what inclusivity has as a sort of a zeitgeist.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah.

Minter Dial: The notion is, I would like to have haters, as Jay used to say, hug your haters. You want to have standout abilities, have conviction, have. And that doesn’t mean liking everything and being great about every topic and backing every movement. You need to have some cojones to stand out and not be afraid to be hated.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah, I saw a quote recently. I can’t remember who said it, but it was something like, if people don’t hate you, they probably don’t love you either.

Minter Dial: You’re not doing enough, whatever it is. If you haven’t fallen over, you’re not skiing hard enough. And, and, and to your point about word of mouth being boring, first of all, it made me think of. Of. I mean. Atomic Hammocks by James Clear. The. The notion of excellence comes from the ability to accept boring. You know, if I. You’re a pro, a tennis pro, or padel pro. Hell, the idea of hitting 1000 backhands down the line, that’s that’s pretty boring. But that is how you get to good. I mean, you perfect your, your ability to be perfect through practice, which you talk about in the book. And then the other. So, the idea is, you know, we do these things around awards and, and ROI. It’s got to be effective. And how much money is this bringing it in? And as soon as you’re cutting that kind of a corner, you, you’re likely to cut out things. Like Gary Vee once obstreperously said, what is the return on investment of my mother? You know, love. We used to have at Redken, the director of love, and you know, the folks at L’Oreal, which, who, I never told them about that because they would never have accepted it at the time, generally speaking, would say, how do you, how do you justify the role of the director of love? And so, these, the word of mouth being the sort of human component of us, we don’t know where to put that in the profit and loss, much less how to encourage it, because we can’t even talk about things in our company.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah, and, and so, yeah, I, I agree with you. And, And so, that’s really the, the, the thesis of the book is breaking bad rules for good reason because we are held in place by these, by norms and by rules. And that, you know, it’s just become, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s almost like I, I, I can’t remember what the, what the term is, but it’s almost like it gets fossilized. Right. I mean, I, I, I, I even see this in like my experience. So, one of the things that’s weird about our world is it’s, it’s, it’s by and large guru led. So, you just mentioned like Gary Vee. Right. So, like in my historic world, you know, in a company, you would challenge each other. I was fortunate. I lived in a company that really treated people well. They tried to do the right thing. They were, it was kind of like an engineering mentality where you wanted to get the right answer, you wanted to see all the sides. You didn’t want to make a mistake.

Minter Dial: Because that’s like a scientific in mind.

Mark Schaefer: It was a scientific, yeah, but it, but it was one that encouraged debate. Well, in this, in the marketing world, it really doesn’t encourage debate. It’s, it’s very guru led. And so, I mean, there’s oftentimes There was one example where Gary Vee said something that just, it didn’t make sense at all. It was even sort of like wrong and the friend of mine, you know, whenever Gary Vee pontificates like that, then everybody starts repeating it. And a friend of mine, you know, had like tweeted this thing that he said, and she’s like a really smart, accomplished person. I said, I’m just curious, like, did you even think about this before you tweeted it? Because, you know, I can’t imagine you agree with this. She said, you’re right, I don’t. And, and it’s, it’s like we sort of get these norms created by these guru isms and then they become like fossilized in our culture. It’s like it was, it was said. Everybody seems to conform to it and seems to agree with it. And then it’s, that’s it. And then, you know, that’s how we started the whole, you know, hustle culture thing. And you know, you know, So, the, the gurus in the marketing land, I’m not sure it’s in every industry like that, but the gurus have this absurd power really to create these norms, whether they make sense or not. And so, this book is like, just blow it up. Just, you know, don’t take, don’t take the world for, for granted and, and, and think about all the bad rules that we can break for, for good reason. And, and there’s a science behind this. You know, a book that I, that I love is Contagious by Jonah Berger. Right. I think it’s a wonderful book. And one of the key principles in this book is that virality is driven by a strong emotional reaction like love, like awe, like, you know, happiness, but also anxiety and fear. And that’s what happens when you push an edge, when you make people a little uncomfortable. And we’re starting to see this show up finally in the marketing world, you know, with a brand like Liquid Death. I don’t think that’s available over in Europe yet, but it’s the fastest growing beverage in America because they’re, they’re just, they’re just looking at a market like water. It’s just completely dull. It’s, there’s no meaning behind any of those brands. And you know, they came in and said, okay, the first thing we’re going to do is we’re going to call our product Death, which I don’t know about you, but my first thing I ever learned in marketing school was never associate your product with Death. They call it Death. They have a mascot called the Murder Man. Their advertising is absolutely cringeworthy. I encourage everyone listening to go to YouTube and you know, look for some of their advertising. You just won’t believe it. You know, it’s. It’s. It’s. It’s certainly memorable. And they’ve quadrupled their sales in the last three years. The world is just, you know, begging for something new, begging for something different. I think another recent example is the crazy stuff Nutter Butter has been doing on TikTok. Their videos on TikTok. It’s like a fever dream. It’s like a bad trip on LSD. It’s like a horror movie. And this is selling cookies again. They’ve tripled their sales in the last 12 months. This was a brand that literally had no meaning to anybody. Maybe we had some faint memory of that being packed in our lunch as a child, but. And then you think about almost every industry. Cars, who’s going crazy with cars, wine, pizza. You know, pizza is. It’s fun. It’s a celebration. Everybody loves pizza. It’s young people love pizza. Who’s doing something interesting with Pete? It’s just dull. Has been normalized. It’s been normalized. And, and the. And the world is just ripe for disruption.

Minter Dial: All right, So, pushback time. Liquid Death certainly sounds interesting. Yeah. I have been fan for 40 years of a rock and roll band that has death in the name. And. And I’ve been very grateful for that relationship because there I feel like it’s been meaningful to me. Yeah. In that the very concept of the Grateful Dead is once you know that you die, you are forever grateful. And so, what I feel is. Is wonky in. In such an idea is where’s the meaningfulness? How much better are we making society by selling Liquid Death? I frankly am a big fan of psychedelics, as you can imagine. And what I see are people wanting to talk about the fear of LSD. So, they’ll raise the example in 1956 of the guy who threw himself out a window on a trip.

Mark Schaefer: Sure.

Minter Dial: But forgetting facts like the fact that he took 70 micrograms, which is just an enormous dose, and had some underlying psychological issues. So, we can do things that stand out, but are we actually doing anything for society? Making me buy another pizza or Dorito potato chip, I don’t feel is making me a better person or society a better place.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah, that’s a. That’s a. That’s a big conversation.

Minter Dial: We’ll roll into it a little bit.

Mark Schaefer: Anyway. That’s a big conversation. So, let me break it down. Let me break it down. All right, So, here we’ve got an entrepreneur who you know, isn’t necessarily a big fan of water, but he sees an opportunity to disrupt this market. And the, the main. So, the biggest problem every business has today is awareness. Every person listening to us today, every company, they want to be seen, they want to be heard, they want to be discovered. So, that is the big issue and it’s harder than ever because we’re living in this pandemic of dull and AI is just littering the world with boring content that makes it even worse. So, awareness is the key to success for any business. You have to create customers and you have to, and you have to start with awareness. Now I think the main lesson with Liquid Death is there is nothing the founder of that brand could do to create awareness that Coke and Pepsi couldn’t copy if he came up with a new flavor or some new special thing. They’re bigger, they have more money, they’re just going to get copied. The only thing they have is the brand is the message. Right. So, you know, Coke would have a lot to lose if they started creating something called death. Same with Pepsi. But when you’re a startup and a disruptor, you’ve got nothing to lose. So, why not have some fun? Now that, that is not necessarily making the world better, but it’s creating a brand that’s fun. That’s an alternative. Now the deeper part of this is, well, I don’t know if we even want to open up that Pandora’s box, but. Oh well, do.

Minter Dial: Mark, hey, listen.

Mark Schaefer: I do think it’s, it’s, and I’ve sort of addressed this now and then on my blog about really the, the, the deeper responsibility and accountability for marketing and, and consumerism and if you, you know something that’s very close to my heart is the really obscene, hurtful, destructful thing, destructing destructive things that happen on social media. And why is that happening? It’s happening because marketers buy ads as long as we buy ads. And, and then we’re going to fuel the beast. And specifically that beast is hate and divisiveness and fear.

Minter Dial: Yeah.

Mark Schaefer: So, because hate is good for business, when people are arguing then they spend more time on the site. And the more time they spend on the site, the more information is collected, the more advertising they see that all the metrics go up for, you know, Meta or another social media platform. And then brands, we love that if they’re getting more views, if they’re getting more users, if there’s more engagement. So, it’s just like this vanity is this never ending cycle that literally is being fueled by brands. So, I mean, I, you know, in one respect, I mean, I agree with you that, you know, marketing is, is having a harmful effect by creating this consumerism, by, you know, the consumerism that’s just out of control, by not thinking through the impacts on the environment, the impacts on mental health that we’re creating directly or indirectly by, you know, promoting brands the way, the way that we do. So, there, there’s a big soapbox.

Minter Dial: Yeah, but what about, I mean, you know, I, I pushing back, not on you, but Coca Cola and, and PepsiCo. I don’t believe that they are doing a great thing for society by selling diet sugar free sodas. I mean, diet free sugars, that’s lots of chemicals and we don’t want to talk about that. Hey, listen, good news is no sugar, but oh boy, is the rest actually healthy. And the idea that I think needs to happen, or this is the part of the conversation I want to have, which is where’s the role for ethics and ethical frameworks to know that that’s beyond the pale. You know, the idea of, of Stephen Jobs, say, as you wrote, he quotes, why not don’t join the Navy when you can be a pirate. Well, what about like commitment to community and service to country? So, being a pirate’s great because that’s all about individuals. Hey, listen, look at me. I get to go and storm and do whatever the hell I want. Yeah, but, but I mean, you shoot first and ask questions later. Ask for forgiveness, not permission of the ethical framework.

Mark Schaefer: I think I’m going to be very direct with this observation. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. So, this is an exercise I do with my classes because there’s this idea of meaning and purpose and doing good for the world. Purpose driven brand values driven brand. We all want to be Patagonia. Okay? So, I do this exercise. Think about everything you’ve purchased in the last month. It could be a hamburger. It could be petrol for your car. It could be a jacket because the weather’s getting cold.

Minter Dial: A gadget for my padel racket?

Mark Schaefer: Yeah, a gadget for your padel racket. It could be a plant for your office. Now, of all everything that you purchased, how many of those products do you know where those brands stand on any social issue? And the answer all the time is zero. Nobody cares. You just want a sandwich because you’re hungry. So, don’t force all this stuff down my throat. I just want to listen to music because it’s music, you know, I just want this jacket because it’s pretty And so, it’s a two-edged sword where aligning with meaning and values is certainly a way to engender loyalty. The research shows that, that if people know that you stand up for something that they believe in, they will go out of their way to buy you, to advocate you. They’ll even pay up to 25% more for the product because we have shared values. But it’s not for everyone. In fact, it’s for almost no one because most of the time we just don’t care. We just, you know, we want our, we, you know, we’re watching TV and we want to eat some popcorn, you know where we want, you know, we just, you know, we have, we want a Diet Coke because we have a fond memory because I used to have a Diet Coke with my dad. Right. So.

Minter Dial: Which is meaningful by the way.

Mark Schaefer: Well, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s an emotional connection. But that’s different than doing good for the world. Right. So, my point is, you know, doing good for the world is not a major goal of most companies.

Minter Dial: I want to go in your way, Mark, and say I agree with you. I mean the idea of, I mean I’ve written about this doing good for the world, that’s just naughty, naughty land where you have no actually idea of how to render that. Doing good for your street, for your local community, within reach and realistic. That seems like a wholly better idea. And yet what we most companies tend to want to do is look at me, I’m doing good for the world.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah.

Minter Dial: Of course nobody believes that because you can’t fix famine, you can’t do world peace. Yeah. Much like we all want it. But that’s, Yeah.

Mark Schaefer: I mean this, and this is something that I, that I wrote about in the, in marketing rebellion. I mean you and I talked about that a couple years ago.

Minter Dial: Yeah.

Mark Schaefer: About don’t, don’t lend a hand, be the hand. Show up in your community, don’t just say it, get out there. And that’s really, that drives a lot of word of mouth, and it drives a lot of credibility for your brand. It creates that emotional connection. And I do believe in that. I really do. And here’s, here’s a trend. In fact, I think I should write about this on my blog.

Minter Dial: There you go.

Mark Schaefer: Here’s, here’s, this is the opposite of what you and I are talking about. So, I don’t know if you’re seeing this in, in the UK and in Europe, but there’s things, there’s thing now in America where many businesses, when you check out before you, you know, complete your transaction. They have your credit card and it says, do you want to donate a dollar to this charity or. Or do you want to round up this thing to the nearest dollar to donate to this charity? I think that is So, crass that you’re taking my money So, that you can say you support this cause, which I may not even know what it is. And you’re putting me on this transactional guilt trip right now So, that it makes you seem like, you know, you’re doing something good for the world, you know, stand up and do freaking something in. In, you know, in our community. I, you know, who knows where this money’s going to. Going to go? I mean, that is the worst, the worst slacktivism that, that you can, you can imagine. But I do agree with you. I really do. You know, in. In my heart, there is value. There is in showing up and not lending a hand, but being a hand. And there’s lots of great examples of where that works. And the reason, when I wrote that in 2019, it was sort of prescient, because in 2020, boom, there’s the pandemic. And the only thing brands can do is show up in the community and help.

Minter Dial: Yeah, I love it. And make some strategic choices, and the.

Mark Schaefer: Ones that really did it will be remembered forever.

Minter Dial: One of the. You sort of approach it in the book, which is this, the notion of play. And Jordan Peterson talks about it as being such an important part. It makes me think of the amazing. The guy who did the Yellow Bananas baseball team.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah, he’s Jesse Cole.

Minter Dial: Jesse Cole, exactly. There’s the brilliance in that. And, And I, you know, of course, I’m a little bit schizophrenic when I say that I also believe in play. I mean, I went to see the Grateful Dead, you know, a couple hundred times, thoUSAnd concerts. I play, you know, with my head inside my head, and I play padel.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah.

Minter Dial: And so, I think the value of play. I was wondering just this. Just talk about the value of play in society, the value of play in enterprise. And how can you. Whether you’re within, on top or without, as you. The three points of view in your most important chapter, talk about how do you bring play in?

Mark Schaefer: Well, one of the things that was So, different about this book, and this is. This is my 11th book. And every time I finished a book in the past, I would be completely worn out. When I finished this book, I was energized, and I told my wife, I’m sad it’s over. This was So, much fun. And the reason why was I got to talk. I got to enter a whole new world of these creative geniuses. This is a world you’re probably a lot more familiar with than I am because of your, you know, marketing roles in the past. And one of the themes everywhere was this idea of play, was this idea of somehow recapturing that childlike innocence where there are no rules. You know, you, you hand them clay, you hand the child paper, and you. Who, who knows what’s going to happen, including eating it. And so, it was like, it is just part of the DNA of all of these companies. And one of the things that I learned from this is to institutionalize play in your life, that your experiences are your creative currency. So, you go out of your way, just take a new route, you know, do something, you know, different, watch something different, do something opposite of what you normally do. And I mean, just for me, like, going into a new city, especially in a different country, and just walking around and, you know, looking at stores and looking how they sell things and how people interact and how they engage, how they communicate, you know, how do they use smell and music and art? You know, it just, it creates this encyclopedia of experiences you can call on later, you know, in your creative process. So, you know, and this, you know, this idea of, of letting go and, and, and, and tapping into these experiences in a safe environment was certainly a theme everywhere at all of these agencies.

Minter Dial: Well, I, I love that. Mark, one of the, the counterpoints of this and mean, just to pull a few other dots together. What. One of the things I was going to mention before about the way you commented on my question was you introduced, I think, a very important concept which is critical thinking. Did you think about what you just reposted about Gary Vee to, to go to the specific context, and there you’re saying you’re introducing critical thinking, which isn’t something that necessarily a child has, but I think is, is vital and ability to fact check. The other thing which I wanted to bring in, which is awe, the notion of awe. And the interesting thing about awe is that it’s childlike by definition somehow. Because in my company, as soon as you showed awe or surprise. Oh, well, that’s not very intelligent. In other words, it’s sort of, it’s an exposure of your ability to be swayed, almost your naivete. But I think being naive is part of enjoying all.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah, I can see that. I could see that. You know, that happened to me recently where I discovered a new band and just, I just. Wow. I just love this band. Love this band. And I was with a group of people who, you know, really like music, and I was So, excited about it, and. And, you know, I felt awe about this. This band. It brought me so, So, much.

Minter Dial: It was called. It was called the Rolling Stones.

Mark Schaefer: No, no, no, I’m not going to. But what happened was this band had been around for a while, And so, this group of, you know, kind of music snobs made me feel bad.

Minter Dial: Yeah.

Mark Schaefer: That I. They were, like, trying to humiliate me, that I just discovered this. Right. And it’s just. Instead of, like, just embracing this.

Minter Dial: Why do you like it?

Mark Schaefer: Yeah. Embracing this childlike joy, you know? So, I can kind of see your point there, but I think this is one of my proudest moments. About this book is introducing this idea of awe in a marketing context. Right. It’s fundamental in a way. And again, what’s this book about? Where do we persist as human beings in this marketing world being overrun by bots? And one of the ways we can do this is bring people together in some meaningful way that creates a shared experience that leads to. The term I use in my book is collective effervescence. It’s this emotional contagion, just like you at a Grateful Dead concert, Right. If you were listening to a Grateful Dead concert in your kitchen through earbuds, that might be great. It might make you happy. But when you’re there spinning around and dancing and singing with other, there’s awe. It’s this emotional contagion of collective effervescence. Now, this is a massive opportunity for marketing because we live in a world that doesn’t have shared experiences like we used to. You know? You know, when you and I were young, we had to save our money for a record album. And when we got that record album, we’d play it over and over again, and we’d invite our friends over and we’d read the lyrics.

Minter Dial: We’d play the whole thing in order.

Mark Schaefer: You’d play it in order and then flip it and then play that. Right. And then, you know, you probably have some food together. And there was a shared experience. And today, most of the world is consuming their media. They’re experiencing their world alone, binging their favorite content alone. And it’s not creating that awe. So, that is a unique, distinctively human role that we can play in this world of marketing. To bring people together in this way that creates awe, that connects them to our brand. It’s not showing them an ad. Immerse them in the feeling of your Company immerse them in, in, you know, what you’re about So, that they, you know, that they’ll always remember it.

Minter Dial: Well, I want to get into that just one second, but I couldn’t avoid or risk avoid the, the, the, this little side joke of how come you didn’t call it awe-dacious?

Mark Schaefer: I just couldn’t. Some, some other people have said that it’s, it was, yeah, yeah, but, but still on the nose or something.

Minter Dial: Yeah. What it does do is, I mean, all these discussions and elements around playfulness and awe is about the humanity piece and, and it’s something that I find tremendously interesting. I want to finish our chat here, Mark, on this notion of experience. And I’m going to contextualize it because I, I feel like I’m always trying to elevate the debate somehow. And I interviewed.

Mark Schaefer: I think you’ve already done a very good job of that today, by the way.

Minter Dial: Thank you, sir. But what I, the guy interviewed, this guy called Chris Kerr. He’s a doctor. And while he began as a sort of traditional doctor, he quickly morphed into a hospice care doctor. And in his life he’s interviews or, you know, he’s accompanied more than 2,000 people to, to their death. And in the interviews that he’s done, these sort of exit interviews, if you will, to use a term in corporate lingo that just takes another turn. In his exit interviews, the, the two things that matter in life are your relationships and experiences.

Mark Schaefer: I would have guessed one of them would have been Diet Coke, but I was wrong.

Minter Dial: Well, that’s true. That’s absolutely different thing. So, So, bringing these immersive experiences into life, into work, that I think necessarily have to have an element of play. Surprise, delight, humanity, messiness, imperfection, naughtiness. Gosh, why not? And sometimes exclusivity, because that also is part of why we want to get together. I mean, the Grateful Dead aren’t exclusive, but they, they, they don’t please everybody. And Hala freaking Lulia. And what a great, as David Meerman Scott said, you know, what a great marketing message or, or, you know, for philosophy ever since they’ve been around.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah, yeah. Well, I love the way you sort of tied everything together there. And I think you, your message is very, very powerful and very, very timely because, you know, we, we sort of see in the news that the younger generation has kind of had it with the old way to live, and they really put an emphasis on experiences, on travel, on shared experiences and, and friends and relationships. But it’s not just young people. A lot of older people now are saying, I’ve had it, you know, it’s time for me to really experience life. Especially we’ve got the baby boomers this generation, the richest generation in the world. They’re starting to retire and start to spend their money in different ways. It’s about relationships and about experiences. And so, yeah, I love the way you brought it all together and really sort of validated some of the principles in the book that I wrote about.

Minter Dial: Absolutely. I mean this idea of humanity and it’s the thing about it, which is the complicated element from a governance standpoint is accepting imperfection. As much as, you know, you might be an engineer trying to figure out how to make a bridge, it doesn’t collapse because below, below perfectionism isn’t a good idea. We’ve, we’ve created this riskless, perfect, like existence which is counter to what humanity is, which is a messy, dirty, sometimes naughty, always a bit bad because that is who we are. And professing or showing values and standards to which we don’t even hold ourselves accountable for that hypocrisy has created all sorts of dissension within ourselves. And if we, if I were to say, one of the problems we have with anxiety, depression and everything in our society is because we’ve detached ourselves from reality and meaningfulness. So, if you’re in a company and you want the awareness, you also need to get people within your company that believe in you. And I wanted to have you just idea I had at the very beginning of the conversation, but I forgot about it, which is humor, sense of humor. That’s, that’s about as human as it gets. Right. I don’t, I mean, you know, there are some chimps And so, on that definitely have a sense of humor. But having a sense of humor is a specific idea. British sense of humor, some sense of humor at the cost. I mean basically humor is always at the cost of something. And, and I recall some person who had this really cheeky, really gripping, engaging social media handle, but then she left and there was nobody who incarnated her sense of humor. So, having a one off agency that comes in says this is something really radical, you can do it, or one individual in your organization that can be really funny, cheeky and get engagement, but it’s not part of your bigger culture. What you’re all about is a big risk. I think that notion of having a deeper culture, ability to take risks, this is I think the final audacious message.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah, boy. I mean there’s So, much there to unpack. So. But let me just comment things briefly. Number one, the messiness. Right? So, that’s another big trend right now. There was a story in the news maybe two weeks ago about how these game. Video game companies are spending millions and millions of dollars to create things that are realistic. And the gamers are saying, no, you know, we like sort of the raw kind of stuff. And there’s examples in the book. We’re leaving it a little out of focus. Makes it more credible. It sort of signals that this is a real human being. Humor. Yes, absolutely. And the risk of humor, it sort of has to be native to your brand. And there’s also a danger in that, that it’s almost like a pinata, right. You can only really bang at once. So, you know, if there’s a meme online, I had a conversation with a university class last week and they’re taught about this meme. And then all these brands come on and try to be funny and they said, oh my gosh, newsjacking. It’s funny once. It’s funny once. But now. So, you can only hit that. You can only really be audacious once you hit the pinata one time, the candy comes out and then you got to move on to something else. So, yeah, just a, A couple things to, to, to. To build on there. But yeah, I mean, I think, I think it’s the right book for the right time because, I mean, the marketing world is just So, darn boring. And I mean, doesn’t have to be a stunt. It doesn’t. And you don’t have to be reckless. I’m not saying be reckless. You know, I’m not saying break the law. I’m not saying be offensive, but just be one step crazier than your competition and see what happens.

Minter Dial: Yeah, you, you, you talk a lot about south by out, whose city logo is something about being weird and liking it that way. That, that is it being crazy. A little crazy for a little bit of the crazies and the weirdos. Let’s keep it going. Mark, how can people, of course, get your book what’s the easiest way and. Or follow you? What do you like? Where do you like to hang out and have people read what you’re up about?

Mark Schaefer: Oh, well, first of all, thank you. I just, I loved our conversation and realized how much I miss our conversations and it’s easy to find me. You don’t have to remember my name. If you can remember, businesses grow. That’s my website. So, my blog is there. My podcast is there on my social connections. And the books today we me we’re talking about Audacious How Humans Win in an AI marketing World. We also mentioned marketing rebellion. We kind of even hinted at the community book belonging to the brand, which I know you know, we had a good discussion about that. And you can find those books on on Amazon.

Minter Dial: Beautiful. Mark Schaefer, professor or a shit stir. Should I add that one?

Mark Schaefer: Thank you So, much. Thank you.

Minter Dial: See ya. Mark.