Minter Dialogue with Vincent Kouwenhoven

In this episode, I chat with Vincent Kouwenhoven, a Dutch entrepreneur who transformed a hobby into the largest safari operation in Zambia and Malawi. Vincent shares his journey from a corporate career in telecoms and venture capital to pioneering fintech solutions in Africa. He discusses his passion for the continent, sparked by a gap year adventure, and how it led him to invest in sustainable safari lodges. We explore the unique allure of Zambia’s wilderness, the importance of creating jobs for local communities, and Vincent’s innovative approach to eco-friendly tourism. Discover how Vincent’s leadership style evolved through hands-on involvement and his commitment to kindness and sustainability. Whether you’re a seasoned traveller or new to the safari experience, Vincent’s insights offer a fresh perspective on luxury travel and conservation. Tune in to learn more about the magic of Africa and the impact of responsible tourism.

Please send me your questions — as an audio file if you’d like — to nminterdial@gmail.com. Otherwise, below, you’ll find the show notes and, of course, you are invited to comment. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to rate it here.

To connect with Vincent Kouwenhoven:

• Check out the Green Safaris site here
• Find/follow Vincent Kouwenhoven on LinkedIn
• Green Safaris on Instagram

Further resources for the Minter Dialogue podcast:

Meanwhile, you can find my other interviews on the Minter Dialogue Show in this podcast tab, on Megaphone or via Apple Podcasts. If you like the show, please go over to rate this podcast via RateThisPodcast! And for the francophones reading this, if you want to get more podcasts, you can also find my radio show en français over at: MinterDial.fr, on Megaphone or in iTunes.
Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s (please excuse the quality of the sound!).

Transcription courtesy of Flowsend.ai, an AI full-service for podcasters

Minter Dial: Hey, Vincent Kouwenhoven. That’s about best I can do for pronouncing your last name.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Close enough, Minter.

Minter Dial: A Dutchman, who I had the great privilege and fun to meet down when I was in the bottom part of Africa navigating in Botswana and then met you and discovered sausage tree. And so, let’s start with a little, you know, easy question. Hey, who the heck is Vincent.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: The madman you met in southern Africa? No, it was all my pleasure to bump into you and your lovely family in Botswana first and then by pure coincidence, to be able to host you and the family in one of my lodges in Zambia. Yeah, we have great fun.

Minter Dial: We did indeed. All right, so, Vincent, describe. How would you like to describe who you are? Who is Vincent?

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Well, I think I told you when we met that I hosted you in what started as a hobby that went completely out of control, now running the biggest safari operation in Zambia and Malawi and, yeah, I guess like many others, many, many moons ago, I spent a gap year travelling across the world and I vividly remember. Well, actually it’s quite a funny story. As a student, I put a map of the world on my dorm wall and decided to throw a dart arrow and go wherever that dart would end. And it landed in Africa. And I remember thinking, yuck, I’m totally. But I will go. I went. I lost my heart. Travelled for about a year from Nairobi to Congo, Tanzania, Zambia, Namibia, Angola, well, basically almost everywhere and completely lost my heart, but returned and had a perfect corporate career after that gap year, mainly in business strategy, consulting and telecoms, eventually set up my own Internet company. And when I exited that in 2007, I decided to go back to Africa and basically pioneer with the first fintech mobile money applications across Africa, which enabled me to spend a lot of time in my beloved continent again. And then one day bought into a lodge as a hobby on the site and then after a couple of years discovered that I love the bush so much and the product of designing, setting up and running safari lodges that by now it’s my core business. Yeah.

Minter Dial: So, first observation, you’re doing your gap year. I mean, I have a recollection of doing something similar with my wife where we said, where are we going to go on holiday? We took the globe, we had an orb, we spun the orbital and then put the finger down and stopped the orb spinning and we landed in the ocean. But the nearest available country was the French Guiana. We ended up going there and it was something of a nightmare. We ended up having to leave and we went somewhere else. But hey, you know what? That’s how the chips fell. But in your choice, it sounded like you ended up beginning in Kenya and opposed to beginning in some of the ex dutch colonies or going straight to South Africa. Is that just a question of chance?

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Yeah. Yeah. We don’t like to think about our past as colonists of South Africa with everything that happened there. No, no. That was what is striking nowadays, that, you know, if you talk about safari in Africa still most people think about Kenya, Tanzania, maybe Botswana. And I feel very privileged to have discovered Zambia as the unknown gem, as you’ve seen. I guess I did. It’s a beautiful country, it’s super safe, and I keep saying it has everything to offer that Kenya and Tanzania and Botswana have to offer, but nobody knows. And that’s the real perk. You get to see all your lions and your wildhog and your leopards, and you’re mostly on your own. There’s not like 100 cars surrounding you as you have experienced yourself in lower Zambia. In Zambia.

Minter Dial: Exactly. I mean, I think in today’s world we’re going to get into this, but I have a few more questions. But the fact is that if you can offer something that is unique, the bohemian in so many of us is seeking more rarity as opposed to crowds of buses of the same. And you just feel so irked by the spoiling that’s happening at that time. But I want to get back just to a couple more questions. One is in your background, the startup you did in Internet. I’m guessing you began that at the end of the 20th century. The Internet is here. You’re the consultant, and you see this Internet thing, you jump into it. What was that business about?

Vincent Kouwenhoven: So, basically, I was high up in the ranks of the Dutch national telco, KPN, when the Internet took us by surprise. As you might recall, back in the days, indeed, mid-nineties, telecoms were all about voice. It was huge profit machine on voice.

Minter Dial: Voice.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: I was made responsible for data, and I vividly remember pleading my case in the executive board about investing more in data and nobody was really interested. And it was like one or two years before the Internet really hit us by a tsunami. So, I was lucky enough to be responsible for the introduction of the Internet in the Netherlands and all the data connections that were needed for that. Yeah. And then when I left, I set up a venture capital company to invest in a broad range of Internet startups, like many of us did. Open an office in Palo Alto as well. And as in venture capital, eight out of ten fail. But two out of ten enabled me to do what I’m doing these days.

Minter Dial: That is beautiful. I mean, in French we say capital risk as opposed to venture capital. The adventure that goes with it, it takes a whole. And I think the Dutch have such a strong entrepreneurial spirit that that makes total sense. And you were talking about the fintech in Africa. I’m familiar with M-Pesa. Was it something like that?

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Something like M-Pesa, yeah, that was.

Minter Dial: Such a great thing. And when I was studying, I was on a think tank looking at new tech adventures around the world and, and obviously much was coming from the US, but something that was fascinating for me was to look at low tech opportunities and the entrepreneurial spirit that had to come with dumb phones. And what was needed at that level in such a different financial model.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Yeah, exactly. Spot on. And that’s the gap I saw. And also wanting to give back and having lost my heart in Africa, for me it was all about finding African solutions for African issues. Using the Internet originally.

Minter Dial: Yeah, well, there’s plenty more to be done in that, but. So, let’s talk about your experience of coming into the safari world. Because one of the things I’m always intrigued with is how do people find their purpose or find their passion? And for the younger who are listening, it’s often kind of abstract, this idea of finding passion and purpose. I’ve just got to pay the mortgage, be much more pragmatic and get through it. And as you and I have moved along and we have experience in life, we somehow, through experiences, through doing stuff, get to an understanding of that. I don’t want, I don’t like, I don’t want to do anymore. This attracts me. So, I was wondering about how you reacted to that or how you think you ended up carving into and moving into the space of your own purpose. Vincent.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Yeah, well, it goes back to that gap year, probably more than 30 years ago, losing my heart for the continents, for, for the bush, for the people, and getting back there. I did regular visits in between those 30 years to Africa, just family holidays and what have you. But getting back there was the purpose to invest in fintech in Africa. Whenever I could, I would visit the park. And I vividly remember visiting what is still my most favourite park in Africa, the Kafue National Park in Zambia back in 2008. And all of a sudden realising that this vast park, bigger than the Kruger National park, which everyone knows, the Kruger, gets about 2 million visitors a year. This Kafue National Park that I love so much, gets about 15,000 visitors every year. But at the same time, I saw it was being poached out, communities started moving into that park that was as famous as the Serengeti in the fifties, realising, who are we to expect this pristine wilderness to remain preserved if the local communities don’t benefit from it at all? I realised in that one visit that the African population is doubling at light speed. There are no jobs. We can’t blame them. They’ve been living off this land for thousands of years to poach the last impala and cut down the last tree if we don’t engage them. By creating jobs, by education, by what have you. And that was the starting point to start thinking about this move into what is now my core business, photographics, Faris in all the major parks across Zambia and on an island in Malawi, with the core driving force to create jobs, jobs, jobs for the people, and with that, to invest in education and what have you. And it’s working. It’s really working. The park is reviving, certainly, and that was back then, a first hobby project. And then I became so passionate about its first success that, yeah, one launch led to another and to another and to another.

Minter Dial: I’m going to plug into that. However, I just have one still lingering question, because, let’s say I can talk about my mum, who always had this love of Africa. Going back to your gap year, you travelled the world, and you probably saw other places where I. There was plenty of hardship, you know, India or Indonesia or wherever. But something attracted you to Africa. And I’m wondering whether it was the pull of Africa or the push away from the craziness of this western world that I live in.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Having just returned to coals in rainy Europe the day before yesterday, I also realise whenever I just spent two and a half months in the field in Africa, I also realised whenever I’m there, I don’t follow the news. I don’t follow any news. I’m just submerged in nature, working with my people, meeting guests from all over the world. I’m currently clueless what’s happening in Ukraine, what’s happening in Israel, and what’s happening in the upcoming us elections. That is one of the good things about submerging myself in Africa. You are so grounded there and you also put global political issues in perspective when you’re in this pristine wilderness, basically busy preserving it for future generations. Is that an answer to your question?

Minter Dial: I think so. It is your answer, Vincent. That’s what counts. And so, these safaris, I mean, I had this tremendous experience at the sausage tree. I haven’t stopped talking about it. In fact, I still have my water bottle. I use with me the aluminium water bottle, which I carry with great fondness. And I talk about the experience specifically at the sausage tree camp, which was where my mom actually went with my sister. And that’s how we ended up coming back to it and everything and it was glorious. You’re just talking about perspective and what do you think is the real lesson learned? Or the hook that would get more people to come to do safaris and specifically in your safaris? But what is it about safaris that the world needs more of them?

Vincent Kouwenhoven: You know, with nature under pressure all over the globe, not even beginning to talk about climate change, what I see in my guests is quite similar to my own experience. They completely submerge. Is that an English word? Submerged?

Minter Dial: Yes, it is. Gets submerged.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Yeah. In that what I call pristine wilderness experience. I don’t think by the end of the day it’s about how many lions you encounter. But I’m sure you encountered a lot when you stayed with me doing all.

Minter Dial: Sorts of funny things.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Yeah, but sitting on your veranda, especially at Saucers Tree, to be taken by surprise at any moment in the day, with a big nosy elephant drinking out of your plunge pool in front of your veranda, that does something to people, I guess, and to more and more people. You don’t need to be fanatical about elephants or lions, but it’s just the whole experience of being so close to nature. Up until recently being shut off the Internet. Now we have Starlink everywhere so you can continue tapping into your work or thank you Mister Musk or whatever, but I think that is the secret. And for me, the driving force to. To grow my company and yeah, we’ve grown pretty fast and attract people from all over the world is basically that everything we do is not about making money from tourism, but enabling a fund generation for conservation. I think I told you, or you might have read we. We plant 30,000 trees every year to compensate for our entire footprint in the lodges. We operate more and more with what I call the Tesla of the bush. The electric gang drive vehicles and electric boats.

Minter Dial: You’re pioneering in that regard too.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: I built the very first one myself back in 2010. And back then it wasn’t so much about being eco-friendly, it was about I was driving in a conventional diesel from one lodge to another, encounter the pack of lions and then you switch up the engine to watch. And then I realised I love the sound of the bush so much. You know, the birds, the alarm calls of the animals. And that was the spark in the time where everyone in the US started buying Toyota prices and the first Teslas, I guess to think, well, if they can do it, we in Africa can certainly do it. We have plenty of sun to charge our vehicles. I called it, it was a Land Rover. I called it lovingly, my E Landy. And that was the first one on the planet, actually, a solar charged game drive vehicle with the same torque as a conventional engine. And by now, I’m in the process to replace my entire fleet with e vehicles and e boats. Again, a company is called Green Safaris. To be the most sustainable operator at the same time, but to do it in a way that actually enhances the guest experience.

Minter Dial: That makes total sense when I recall very much going with one of your wonderful guides and we were driving and he stopped all of a sudden. Can you hear? So the guide was so good that he could hear across the noise of the machine and how much of his guiding is guided also by not just sight, but listening to the birds squawking and the conversation that’s happening above. So, that’s a glorious thing. It sounds like it actually could even be a business by itself because, I mean, there’s so many game parks that are using these diesel engines, and frankly, I can imagine how much better an experience it would be, not to mention the ecological story for everybody.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. I’m not, I’m not interested.

Minter Dial: Okay. I was trying to grab you in that one. And so, you’ve talked about looking at the animal’s perspective, taking that feeling of an elephant so close to you, the grandeur of natural. Right beside you there is a certainly a space where people are. I mean, I remember when I was at university studying what happens in nature and try to make correlations maybe between what happens in nature and us as other form of animals. And it’s become something of a contentious issue. When you’re sitting there and you’re watching a pride of lions playing with some little cubs that are running around, and you start anthropomorphizing what’s actually happening? Oh, the mother’s angry or, you know, and, oh, that’s the bad kid, the naughty kid or whatever, we give them characteristics and then we start talking about. So, that’s, oh, that’s just like my son or, you know, whatever. But we’ve also got a whole slew of people that say, you know, well, we should be allowed to be different from animals because we are a higher being. And I obviously, you know, you get to get rid of all the Politics that you get (with a big P), but there’s a lot of other things that are happening. And I’m just wondering to what extent you feel like there’s a rewriting or a restarting rejigging of our minds through safaris as far as get back to simplicity, get back to reality, get back.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: To simplicity is quite spot on. I spent. Nowadays, I spent more than half of my time in the bush working with my local teams. And what I enjoy most is to hear the old village stories, to learn about their traditions. But what impresses me most is the knowledge of the trees and the plants. How many? Of course, they all are very happy that we invest in healthcare and they now have more and more access to modern western medication and facilities. But, man, the deep knowledge of average Joe in the bush about to use this root for this illness, this bark of the tree for that illness, this leaf for this. Oh, don’t touch that leaf. It will kill you in a second. That never stops. Fascinating me, that deeply rooted connection of my teams and most of my staff come from the communities around these parks in the areas of their forefathers. Is that simplicity? I don’t know, but I love it. I love the fact that, you know, the scope of the world is limited to their direct environment.

Minter Dial: Yeah, I remember there’s the. There’s the toothpick, there’s the African toothbrush, all these things. And it reminds me, I really want to get on my show a man called Brian Muraresku, who wrote about how there was this concoction that came from plants that was called the kykeon. And the kykeon was psychedelic and so entirely natural and had tremendous binding properties for the community that all took it, and how we could also do with a little bit of binding together as opposed to the division that the world is seeing.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: May I ask you, because you visited quite a number of lodges. What struck you? Visiting my lodge in Lower Zambesi.

Minter Dial: All right, so the fact is I only did one, but it has been, of all the lodges that I’ve ever visited, the most, the supreme experience. Part of that, of course, is that you really have a strong focus on luxury. A second is that it was, we were all together as a family and totally privatised. For us, it felt, which was just, you know, extreme luxury. There are two things that stood out, and one is the woman who took care of the lodge and how she immediately took us on board, took care of us at a very granular level. Specifically, my wife, where she has her handicap and she immediately took in charge this idea, which just doesn’t happen anywhere else, that kind of immediate reaction and the grace with which she in particular did it. So, credit, full credit to you and to her for that. The second thing is the surprises. When I built businesses and the notion of surprise, it’s almost dangerous because what happens if it doesn’t go well, you know, and they’re not expecting, or this and that. And so, surprises come with risks, naturally, the way you architected those two, I’m not going to reveal the whole thing because that would be, you know, you need to go to experience this. Words will not suffice. The surprise, the awe, the just the sheer childish appreciation that each of us, from the kids on up to the oldest, felt in that. And then obviously it was such a treat also to see you there. But I mean, really independently, it was just a unique, mind-blowing experience. That’s the way I want to put it, and felt totally cared for, can’t stop talking about it. And I really certainly encourage, and of course the Zambia, I mean, Zambia doesn’t really have, as far as I concerned, a particular reputation in my mind, not a bad or good one. You know, there’s more certainly talk about the dangers in South Africa than there is in Zambia, as far as the danger of going there. It was a great country to discover. Malawi I’m very much inquisitive about, hey, I’ve never been to Malawi. Well, why not now? I have a reason. Because you are cautioned. You give it your guarantee, if you will, and you are investing in it. So, that was my experience. Sausage tree camp. If there’s a travel agent who’s listening to this or you’re in touch with a travel agent, you need to get green safaris on their list.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: In their mind, what I was fishing for is what I see. That is one of the cornerstones of our success. At an early stage, we defined a set of four corporate values which are very simple. Be green, be proud, be dedicated and be kind. Kind. And I dare say what we stand out for. If I look at the guest reviews, it’s probably the value I appreciate most. And that’s the kindness of my team. They’re not giving a show. It’s this intrinsic happiness of what I call the Green Safaris family to meet our guests and please and do whatever it takes to make everyone happy there. Between themselves, between them and the guests, between them and me. It’s a lot of hard work to run these properties, long days. So, the dedication, the proudness they have obviously, being green safaris. We’d like everyone to be extremely aware of sustainable practises, but I hope you, and I think I’m actually quite convinced you notice the kindness of your waiter, your chef, your guides. It’s not a slick show as you might encounter somewhere else. It’s what we really stand out for and it has a lot to do with the Zambian character I guess. It’s a super friendly, super safe country.

Minter Dial: Yeah, the word be kind is very interesting because I was reading recently about the difference between being nice and being kind. Yeah, you can be kind and not be nice in the way as in you’re not trying to necessarily do good, you’re trying to be kind. And sometimes, and I want to get into this next part which is in management you can still be cruel to be kind. In other words, if you need to lay off somebody you can still do it in a kind way.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Absolutely.

Minter Dial: It’s not a nice thing to do. No, but there are kind manners. So, Vincent, you know, you obviously come, you have this big background in traditional industry and in the west and so on. You end up investing in these properties, turning them into these sustainable properties. You’re integrating them into the various local communities. Talk us through how you as a leader, as a CEO of all this you feel you’ve evolved.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Yeah. Well, what comes close to mind? About a year ago one of my lodges burned down to the ground overnight. And somehow, you know, and every safari operator has experienced this in his life or in his career. I knew that phone call. I wasn’t there, I was close by but I knew that phone call would one day come. And so, it did. And then it was actually the first lord I designed and built myself together with my son. So, it almost felt like, you know, it’s one of my kids has just died. But then it happened in June last year and I had it in my mind to whatever, to rebuild it at light speeds and be open by Christmas again. And we started building in September and on December 23 the job was done. Being so passionate about realising this, I was there the entire four months that it took to rebuild and it was a crazy ambitious job to do it in four months. So, together with a local foreman we started adding, adding more people, more people, more people to get on with it. But what I learned in those four months as an evolution, instead of every morning at 530 we had a kick-off with all the labourers was that instead of pointing out and somebody called it management by pointing, by finger pointing. I basically joined each and every team throughout the day, the 16 hours a day. At one point in time I was pushing culverts on a road with ten guys. And that’s participated. Leadership is something that has grown on me over time. But this was a typical example. I had 149 guys working to make this happen. And maybe I was number 150, but we were completely them. Seeing their boss working his arse motivated them so much more than being told every day, you do this, you do that, you do that. Yeah. And that was, in a way, a bit of a revelation. It happened naturally. I felt I had to do it. It was great fun. But that’s a completely different style of managing than when I was on the board of a telecom with 32,000 employees and all my corporate staffs. And that is a bit of being so hands on, involved and being one of the team instead of on top of the team.

Minter Dial: What’s interesting about that is that this idea of being hands on and rolling up your sleeves and you’re modelling the behaviour they’re hoping for everyone else to do. If you can do it, then sure, shit, everyone else can. Typically, there’s also, you’re very close to that type of an attitude is, well, I want to manage everything, I want to be there, I want to see everything and sort of micromanage everything. And I just want to put that in the context of luxury. Because if I have had the chance to be in many luxurious locations and in fashion, there’s a sort of high in haute couture, it typically the characteristic that I’m thinking of is very snobby, very demanding, as in rudely demanding. I don’t care at all, as long as you get the fricking thing to be the best ever. And that sort of pinsnickety, detail-oriented kind of need for the perfection. So, how do you cross those two thoughts and how do you manage to retain the extraordinary luxury without crossing into over exigency and ridiculous demands and overworking people?

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Yeah. A typical example is, is how we recruit key people we needed. Early this year, we needed a new high-quality chef. Because I hope you noticed, it’s really fine dining at my properties, even in.

Minter Dial: The middle of the river, dare I say?

Vincent Kouwenhoven: And I vividly remember that someone recommended this guy. And I met with him in a hotel in the capital in Lusaka. And we just started talking about food instead of his whole resume and where he worked. I asked him about what are your favourite dishes, what are your favourite ingredients? And I saw, immediately saw this passion of this, this chef to be for beautiful food. And that was half of it. Then I invited him to spend a week at a lodge on probation within an existing team. And then I asked the existing head chef there. After a week, how did you feel feel about working with this gentleman who was at a way higher level than the existing head chef? And I already noticed again, the kindness in which this new chef led the existing team in a coaching way and not in a Gordon Ramsay way, that it was a good fit, only to learn later that he has cooked for Hillary Clinton, for Kofi Annan. Statehouse in Zambia. Used to call this guy in whenever they had VIP’s coming. And now he’s one of my head chefs. And as you’ve noticed, because he’s the new head chef at sausage three, he brings Bush dining to the highest level. So, yeah, it has a lot to do. Of course, I love the fact that we sometimes start lodges with people from the direct communities with zero experience, and we train them in house. But by now, having done this for about 15 years, I do have a group of core people with the right skills to take the rest of the group along. So, it’s not micromanaging by me. I’m very privileged to have. Nobody ever leaves greens forest to have a dream team of people who know what they’re doing and who know my values and, yeah.

Minter Dial: Would you say, Vincent, is something that I firmly believe that one should, above all else, hire for attitude?

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. That’s. That’s spot on. Yeah, yeah.

Minter Dial: So, last sort of zones of area would be the client, the customer, dealing with customers. And we’re pretty painful bunch of people at times, demanding, fickle, not even sure what we want, not very loyal. That’s the general spirit of customers for the majority of businesses around the world. And people have been changing. I mean, there’s been a whole evolution between when you and I were teenagers to the world we’re in now, and the exigencies, the types of things people are talking about. How have you seen your customers evolve over your time? And how are you adapting to this new customer base or not?

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Safari is probably one of the most expensive ways to holiday. It is a very expensive product. So, you know, you attract. We attract throughout the world pretty well-off people who are pretty well travelled and who do have high expectations. But within. Within that group, the diversity is still massive. We attract probably one third Americans, one third Europeans, and more and more the affluent from Brazil, from China, from India. They’re finding their way to us. I always cherish, whenever I’m hosting myself, that diversity of people visiting our lodges and the joy most of the times, apart from submerging in nature and having your line encounters, we have a lot of communal dining. And to see how that diversity leads to. Well, look at how you and I have met. Two interesting new encounters. So, there’s one common denominator and that’s you have to be pretty well off to afford a high-quality safari. But with that, you know, we attracted die hard safari people, people who’ve been everywhere and know that in Zambia you have more variety of species. Avid birders love to come to Zambia because. Yeah, the variety there is unheard of. Obviously, it’s not usually the first-time safari experience for people visiting Zambia. They’ve been everywhere and then they go to Zambia. But having, having said that, no, it’s, I guess it’s on average, like your mother advised you, to come to this particular lodge, a lot of repeat business, even people who love it so much. We have couples that come back every year for a ten-day walking safari in south Luanga. Now, the diversity is huge. If you say, have you seen an evolvement? I think in some of our lordships we now see more younger honeymooners. That’s quite new to me. It used to be the saying the newly dead and the nearly wet are the ones who visit your safari. But we do see more and more younger people who often don’t have enough time, so they do a short, like seven- or eight-day safari, whereas more elderly people do the whole circuit, which is a 14 day. Yeah, I can’t see that it’s evolved over time, except for the fact that we do host more younger people and of that, quite a lot of honeymooners actually, from all over the world.

Minter Dial: Nice. Well, a good address. We will be talking about that. Your luxury, I mean, safari, as you say, are obviously for the more affluent luxury. How do you stay at top akin to what’s going on in luxury? What other brands are there? Are there places that inspire you in order to push the boundaries of the type of service you provide?

Vincent Kouwenhoven: As you know, I’ve designed and built half of the lodges myself and I acquired existing lodges and turned it into this one big Green Safaris family. I’ve learned a lot from the acquisition of existing lodges who’ve been doing this for many years or decades. Even the lodges that we added through acquisition have been top lodges for, for decades. So, I’ve learned a lot from basically taking over and not changing a thing, at least not for the first year, except for greenification, making sure it meets my requirements for sustainability. Well, the recent trip with my son to Botswana had as a purpose to see how are other people doing it.

Minter Dial: That’s how we met with Ruurd.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Yeah. And it was what was quite reassuring, that we’re doing the right thing, actually.

Minter Dial: Indeed. But I mean, do you. Do. I mean, like the Park Hyatt or any of the other hotels, do you feel the need to try to import that type of exigency into the bush? Or is that just a bridge too far.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: That is way too far. I’ve recently visited a lodge in Zambia that has put massive lcd television sets in every room. Well, never. I mean, can you imagine? You’re there to emerge in nature, to be stargazing from your veranda and then you put a big plasma screen in your safari tent. No way.

Minter Dial: And something I admired about you is your strong desire not to have Internet in the common areas. If you need to have Internet, well, you kind of have to let them have that in their lodge, but nowhere else. Let’s be with nature. Let’s be with each other.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Let’s be with each other. Let’s have conversations. So, there’s a complete ban on browsing in the restaurant or the bar area, but if you need to work, you go to your room and you, by now have super bandwidth for that. Yeah, no, I still travel a lot and I visit a variety of very basic to very posh hotels and. Yeah, but safari is something different and it has to remain something different.

Minter Dial: Yeah. You’re not going there for the cleanest experience. Right. Wherever that’s. You know, that’d be silly. If we get rid of all dirt and spiders and. I mean, because that is somehow part of what it’s about.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Yeah, yeah.

Minter Dial: All right, well, Vincent, been great to have you on. I want to. I hope that this conversation has sparked some people’s imagination, sparked some people’s desires to go cheque out greensafaries.com dot. What about social media? What? Where can people go? Find out more, discover a little bit, tease them into seeing more what you’re up to.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: I think we recently relaunched. Quite stunning videos. I will forward it to you, amongst other sauces, three that really show the essence of what we have to offer. No, it’s basically the website greensfires.com and the connected social media channels on Facebook and Instagram.

Minter Dial: And of course, there’s the film that Ruurd did. It’s a lovely film, too.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Yeah, that should be on Netflix. I still would love to share that story on a bigger audience. So, if you have an idea on how to get that broadcasted on Netflix. They do have more and more interest in these, you know, groundbreaking. And I think it is quite groundbreaking what we’re trying to do in terms of conservation.

Minter Dial: So, you heard it from Vincent. Anyone who knows anyone at Netflix, get them to hear and listen to what Vincent’s all about. Vincent anything Ville. Danke. I think something like that in Dutch. I’m hoping. Anyway, been great to have you on. I just can’t say how much I really enjoyed the experience, the one that I visited. There are so many others that hopefully I will become a repeat customer. Vincent, many thanks.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Many thanks for giving me the floor. And do let me know when, when you come back. I’d love nothing more than to host you again. Maybe in my bird’s nest on the Busanga Plains.

Minter Dial: Ooh la la. Jealous, right, here we go. Thanks a lot, Vincent.

Vincent Kouwenhoven: Thanks. Thanks. Have a great day. Thanks to.