Minter Dialogue with Adam Pisk

Adam Pisk, co-founder of Bruntwork, an outsourcing company with a global presence in Colombia, Kenya, and the Philippines, joins us in this episode. Adam shares the remarkable journey of Bruntwork, which has grown to over 3000 staff in just three and a half years. We delve into the pivotal moments brought on by COVID-19, which forced Adam and his team to pivot from running a technology marketplace for trades and services in Australia to becoming a leading outsourcing provider.

Adam discusses the challenges and triumphs of digital transformation, the importance of a strong ‘why’ in leadership, and the nuances of managing a remote team in the developing world. We also explore the role of AI in recruitment and how Bruntwork leverages technology to supercharge their operations. Adam provides insights into the work-from-home model, the importance of understanding client culture, and the future of outsourcing in a rapidly evolving business landscape.

Please send me your questions — as an audio file if you’d like — to nminterdial@gmail.com. Otherwise, below, you’ll find the show notes and, of course, you are invited to comment. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to rate it here.

To connect with Adam Pisk:

• Check out Bruntwork’s site here
• Find/follow Adam Pisk on LinkedIn
• Send an email directly to Adam

Further resources for the Minter Dialogue podcast:

Meanwhile, you can find my other interviews on the Minter Dialogue Show in this podcast tab, on Megaphone or via Apple Podcasts. If you like the show, please go over to rate this podcast via RateThisPodcast! And for the francophones reading this, if you want to get more podcasts, you can also find my radio show en français over at: MinterDial.fr, on Megaphone or in iTunes.
Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s (please excuse the quality of the sound!).

SUMMARY KEYWORDS: people, ai, companies, work, technology, staff, culture, philippines, business, calls, clients, office, developing, adam, team, person, commute, supercharging, trades, level

SPEAKERS: Adam Pisk, Minter Dial

Minter Dial  00:05

Adam Pisk, great to have you on the show from Down Under not so many guests, because we have so much of the time the time lag. But it’s great to have you on the show wanted to get you on the show. And we seem to be living in very difficult, challenging, uncertain times. More and more companies are trying to are faced with this dilemma of hybrid from home mixed, you know, or at the office. So, let’s start off with a little introduction, Who is Adam Pisk?

Adam Pisk  00:39

So, at the moment, I will, I’m one of the cofounders of a company called grunt work. And we’re an outsourcing company. We have staff in Colombia, Kenya, and the Philippines predominantly. And we started the business about three and a half years ago, and we have over 3000 staff. So, that’s, that’s a little intro as to what we do. And I can dig into the hybrid question a little bit more when you want to move to that?

Minter Dial  01:06

Well, from that short introduction, that sounds like meteoric rise. Let’s go back to what you were before because in the preamp preamble, and we were chatting before you were telling me about how you had to make this massive pivot, because of COVID. And so, give us a little description of what you were and what you went to.

Adam Pisk  01:30

Okay, so we still have and we were running exclusively before COVID technology marketplace where you could hire trades and services on it in Australia. And obviously with COVID, there wasn’t much demand for trades and services because Australia, if the rest of the world doesn’t know this had one of the harshest lockdowns globally, particularly in Melbourne, etc. So, our business didn’t do very well, the beginning of COVID, because no one wanted trades and services. At the time we had about 70 staff in the Philippines that were working for that business, and suddenly they then had nothing to do. And so, at the beginning of COVID, no one had a clue how long it was going to go for. And it’s not you’re not in the Philippines, getting government support for your staff, etc. So, we made a decision that we owed our staff to try everything possible to ensure that they were paid, and that they had a job and they had work. And we put our heads together and said, what else can we do? We’ve got very talented people. It’s not that they’re exclusive to the one business what else can we do with 70 talented people and do something else? And then that led to the to the pivot.

Minter Dial  02:56

Right. So, when you say we that’s you and your cofounders? Correct? Correct. And how did you articulate the change? Because, you know, you’re doing a marketplace for tradespeople. By the way I would I would push back and say I think the need was still there. Just no one was allowed to go out of the home to actually fix the plumbing because, right? Correct. I would say that the electricity and plumbing was still a problem during those lockdowns.

Adam Pisk  03:19

Right. Yeah, to fix it yourself.

Minter Dial  03:21

That’s right. You let yourself! DYII? But you’re this decision to move from the marketplace of trades, to outsourcing, which ostensibly has nothing to do with trades people. It doesn’t sound like it. So, how did you come up with that? I mean, you went open blue sky. What were the things that you How did you channel down into this selection?

Adam Pisk  03:48

Well, I suppose desperation calls for you to think outside the box. So, the stuff that we had in the Philippines the marketplace is based, was Australian tradespeople and contractors etc. But the whole business, the back end, the customer support, the sales, the finance, the HR, the software development was all done out of the Philippines. So, that skill set wasn’t so much to do with trades. So, we dug into our Rolodex and our connections and said, Who could we who at the moment really needs a great team of people. And we came across a supermarket chain in Australia, quite a large supermarket chain. And they had prided themselves on being like a bricks and mortar supermarket chain, where it wasn’t about online delivery. They were very late to the party with that, in fact, they didn’t have it really. It was about going into experiencing the store feeling the fruit it was that whole concept. And they stuck to it and they were very successful. But COVID obviously was a real problem for them. So, we pitched to them and we said look, we’ve got all the software development we know how to build websites we know about logistics we know about customer support. But we can help you with warehousing. Let’s get you an online platform and all the infrastructure associated with that up and running for you in two to three weeks and get you selling produce online. And they agreed to it, we did it. And within three weeks that was up and running and significant turnover, supermarket chain, obviously significant turnover running through that. So, then we were like, We can do this. There’s an opportunity here, who else can we pitched it. And the second client we had was a fashion retailer had 1100 stores in Australia, and in shopping centers, different brands, conglomerate that had a number of different brands, also didn’t have much of an online presence. And so, we pitched the same thing to them. Can we you know, we’ve got infrastructure, we’ve got people, we’ve got software development skills, we know about online marketing, let’s do it for your living brands. And then all of a sudden, within really a six-week period, we then had 250 staff working for between both companies and both up and running. And then the light bulb moment really was okay, this is saved. This has saved the jobs of the other company, but we’re onto something here. Let’s see what where we can take it. And that’s been we put the accelerator on that business.

Minter Dial  06:19

So, that sounds like you rolled up your sleeves and did digital transformation for these companies.

Adam Pisk  06:27

Correct? Correct in a very fast, quick way.

Minter Dial  06:32

What were some of the key challenges or maybe success factors that make digital transformation in your experience? I mean, obviously, you’re coming in, from the outside, you’re outsourcing, you’re being the outsourced mechanism to go from bricks and mortars to e commerce, which is basically what everybody has been doing now. With some were forced to through the COVID. But what are the challenges that what how do you actually make digital transformation work? What from your experience?

Adam Pisk  07:03

Yeah, I mean, ideally, when I’ve done these types of things before and not an enterprise level, in my own businesses that I’ve had before, you generally plan it out, and you have time, the real challenge with this was no one saw COVID Coming. There was a real urgency for both those businesses because they were shut, and they had stuff and they had projects and they had clothing inventory, huge amounts of it, that then what do you do, and we need to move fast. So, it became very much scrappy. It was let’s execute a strategy to the best of our ability. We think this is going to work. There wasn’t time for testing A to B. But we had a lot of experience in terms of what type of digital marketing how to attract leads. And then the challenging I talked about the most challenging is how do you then incorporate the digital strategy with a customer support team and then logistics, warehousing to actually make it all work? So, there are a lot of challenges every day is challenging in that. And consumers were buying, like, like, there was there was COVID people were at home consumer spending, and we were all feeling the inflationary effect of that now, but consumer spending went up. So, yeah, it there was speed, urgency and no time for mistakes. We’ve made plenty of them. But you said to pull through.

Minter Dial  08:33

Well, it sounds like both from your business itself and the work that you were supplying, basically, you had your ass being held over a Bunsen burner and you had to go for it. And you know, like you say it’s sort of like the urgency, the emergency was actually the biggest stimulant.

Adam Pisk  08:50

Yeah, and there was a real motivation, you know, in in leadership. You You’ve got to have the strong why and your team has to have that strong way. And we were very determined through COVID Not to deduct anyone salary, not to say, Oh, we’re having trouble, we can’t pay you this huge ramifications of that in the developing world. They weren’t getting that the government handouts that they were getting were bags of rice. So, if they weren’t being paid, there were really serious repercussions. So, for us, the weigh was very strong. We got our team and staff invested in that and other people, in terms of our management layer invested in that way. And our clients had a strong why because they were also crashing and burning on their sales. So, you had a lot of very motivated people. And that certainly helped.

Minter Dial  09:42

The pragmatic why, as in we need to survive, is a sort of why but what would be or how would you describe define the why of Bruntwork?

Adam Pisk  09:55

Yeah, the reason for our being and it really stemmed a lot from that experience is, we want to increase the economic opportunity for the people that work for us. And our clients that engage us. I mean, that’s the core, why of why we exist. And the thing is, when you’re in the developing world, you really see that in a lot more material sense than you do in the Western world. Because one person that’s being employed by you is generally supporting 10 people around them. And that’s a real difference. So, you have this multiplier effect that you really see where the one person can is supporting a village in a literal sense. So, when you help one person, you raise that standard of living in you raise their health care, etc, then it makes a material difference.

Minter Dial  10:52

That makes total sense very laudatory. Now I want to talk about this notion of work from homework hybrid. And the idea of disseminating, keeping together some sort of brand, a culture, because at the end of the day, it’s a whole other ballgame when you are talking through this screen here. And trying to build cohesion, trust culture, how do you go about that?

Adam Pisk  11:21

I have a different perspective on it. And we have tried all those models. office, we’ve had two officers, we’ve had hybrid, and now we’re exclusively work from home. And the perspective that I have is in the developing world, it’s different, you’re not in London, driving down the highway, in a nice car, on a 25 minute commute, listening to a podcast like this on your way to work, really enriching your life while you’re doing it and enjoying the experience, you’re traveling on average two to three hours in a Jeepney. And that’s not including queuing time, generally in the rain, to get to work. So, you’re traveling five hours a day, often on average, there are examples of our staff that were traveling on average, eight to 10 hours a day, to get to work, and not in comfortable environments. So, in the developing world, the commute is a real issue. That, yes, Office has a lot of benefits, but the commute just takes all balanced out of their life. The other the other thing that I think is important to realize is in the developing world, particularly if you’re making money, and you’re healthy, and you’ve got a work life balance that with the commute you wouldn’t have, you’re a really happy person. And when you’re a really happy person, you appreciate the company that you work for, and you become engaged, because you value that. So, culture isn’t okay, the water cooler moment, it’s not going over to someone and having a chat, you know, over coffee, lunch. Technology helps a lot with that too. And we can dig deeper into that part of it. But even above that, you give someone eight hours of sleep a night, and you give them the money to have a good life. You can talk about all the water cooler moments you want and all the office experiences and all that in office collaboration, and it pales in comparison. So, that’s my overarching answer. And then there’s a lot of we can dive deeper into the technology.

Minter Dial  13:26

That’s a great starting point. Really, Nick, the thing I’m thinking about? Oftentimes I see company management, thinking about these things, because while in London, you think it’s 25′, a lot of people have one hour and a half commutes because rounding is a sprawling city. And so, the argument that it avoids having to do long commutes, we’re not immune to that thought in even in the bigger modern cities. Yet the or at least the issue often becomes this notion of building trust, and teamwork, because you’re not in the office doing a scrum together. People’s technology doesn’t always turn on perfectly, especially in certain worlds where they don’t have the great bandwidth and such. And so, we sometimes have some leaders who say, well, I need to put in methods to control how many hours they’re working, and monitor all that. Then there are other challenges like getting people on time because it’s one thing to wait for five minutes when you’re in a room and you’re talking. But online the notion of time, in my opinion is very different. When you say nine o’clock it’s nine o’clock. It’s not 9:15 Oh gosh, I had something else to do. I saw somebody in the corridor. No, no, we’re, we’re on together and we’re waiting at nine when the call is So talk us through some of those components of how you manage because you got these three major countries it seems, all around the world.

Adam Pisk  14:58

Look, we measured it. I was the person who was the last in our organization to believe in work from home, I was the one really fighting to have the office. And my desk was in the middle of the office, generally on the sales floor level, and I’d never had a corner, I was right in the middle. And I believed I needed to be there. And it wasn’t until I saw the matrix that I started to get convinced otherwise. And we could do it, we had the same teams in office hybrid and work from home for an extended period of time. So, we got the right data, to prove to ourselves, which was going to be the best method, the challenge and a lot of different roles. The challenge with the office that we didn’t get well, first of all, efficiency, productivity, employee happiness, satisfaction, performance at every level, sick days, or better within a work from home environment, or better efficiency, productivity, I feel because you get distracted in the office. Whilst if you have the right management structure for work from home, you can say you get distracted from work from home. But if you’re given the right KPIs, the right objectives and the right management tools, it’s about starting the day and ending the day and you’ve got to get all this stuff done. And there’s less people coming in and trying to bother you to say, hey, tapping you on the shoulder. What about this? What about that, in terms of the scrims, for example, the technology now to do that, in a collaborative way, is I think even more is even better in a lot of ways in office because of the AI technology that can be utilized that can take these calls transcribed, give analysis, and could feed through a whole process, which is very important in our business where, if I’m trying to have a sales call with you, and you’re looking to hire staff, AI will sit in the background, we’ll take a lot of data from even our sales calls and what we’re talking about and feed that into our recruiting system, which is very hard to do in an in person type situation. Now I’m not discounting in person, I fly to the Philippines five times a year to meet up without staff, we encourage our staff to meet up as well. So, we do spend money on that. We don’t spend money on office rent, we invest that into gatherings locally, and technology. So, we haven’t found any drop, we found increases in all of those things. And again, without the commute, staff are happier and managers happy because they’re getting more performance. So, that’s me talking about the data, and I was the guy was the last person or organization to believe it.

Minter Dial  17:41

Wonderful. Now, I want to talk to you about the hiring rate human going out. So, 400 people a month, as I noted, you’re over 3000 employees and three and a half years, which is just crazy, crazy growth. Hiring. We I’m guessing that obviously we’re talking more about third world or you know, developing world countries. What about trying to match personalities? Or is this is this also something you don’t feel what I’m what criteria do you use? And how do you match up those things? In the context within which I’m talking about is thinking about things like culture, and brand, relationship or at least feeling like they belong to the company? How do you go about doing that, with so many people over such a large territory?

Adam Pisk  18:33

Look, technology is the enabler for that. And there’s a whole rabbit hole in terms of AI that we could go down. But what you talk about in terms of culture in the right fit is highly relevant. I can just kind of give you someone and say, Hey, I’m into. I’m giving you Joe and Joe’s culture and view on the world and values is totally different to yours and go, yes, but he’s got all the skills, so therefore he’ll work and I’m paying him and you’re paying him right? So, doesn’t work like that. So, culture, all those things are critically important. So, it’s important for us to understand the businesses that we’re working with, and dig deeper to what then what sort of what sort of person what sort of skill set does someone need or what sort of experience they need, it needs to be deeper into values, culture personality. To do it at scale. You need the right technology that can assess calls, that you’ve trained it very well and the technology in this space is mind-blowingly amazing in the last even the last six months, you can have that feed into a recruiting system. With asking with having the right resumes, voice recordings, questions. You can then get you can then get a shortlist of people that matches certain criteria. Now it doesn’t eliminate In the personal involvement, we have 100 recruiters that also are involved in the rate matching, and we sit with our clients through interviews. We have a specialized team that does that, again, AI is assisting in a lot of that. But AI is supercharging us to do this at scale. It’s not replacing people, but it’s supercharging. And making it more accurate. So, yeah, it is something we’re aware of. If I give you the wrong person, the right skills, but the wrong person in culture, you’re not going to keep them. So, we recruit for free, we replaced for free, that’s a real cost to us. So, we have to look at that really closely.

Minter Dial  20:40

Alright, so that’s amazing. 100 people in recruitment? Can you talk us through about the AI you actually use? Is it proprietary? Is it just an add-on plug-on plugin?

Adam Pisk  20:49

One of one of the things that we do, there are sort of proprietary elements, it’s not an off the shelf system, necessarily. We like to look globally for tech companies that have got really smart people, but are at a fairly startup stage. Because what happens with that is if you’ve got very smart people with some interesting technology, and you come in at the ground level, you basically have a very smart development team that customizes our solution to you. And, and you take the risk of being one of the first, but we’ve been pretty good at identifying companies that could develop technology like that. So, we’ve taken some off the shelf product, and really then customized that with those organizations. So, there’s multiple AI technologies that we use through that process, some out of Israel’s out of the US. But yeah, we spend a lot of work customizing.

Minter Dial  21:50

Fabulous. Well, I think at the end of the day, personally, that the AI this whole boom, where it will get down to is creating competitive advantage through that customization through the proprietary databases that are feeding into it make the learning happening, and such. So, I suspect you have a fairly large a team as well, then?

Adam Pisk  22:12

Well, as I said, we utilize these companies for that. But we have a management team that really understands that and caters and can and knows enough about it to get the outcome that we’re looking for. So, it’s something that’s critically important to us.

Minter Dial  22:28

For companies that are, you know, there are so many companies that are large companies looking at AI as an opportunity or, you know, gosh, I better get on it. You I guess you’re not a coder, you’re not necessarily the biggest AI expert in the world. How does one go about integrating AI effectively into the business from your experience?

Adam Pisk  22:54

Look, you have a lot of late nights trying to understand the technology and what it can do. Because, I mean, my view is and you know, maybe my competitors are listening to us. But I think most people, particularly in our space, look at AI at a fairly superficial level. Oh, it’s chat GPT. It’s open AI it’s anthropic in its limited form, without understanding how it can be really customized and utilized to, to enhance process. And it takes a lot of deep diving, to try and understand that I don’t have a tech background. But I’m looking at the best performers globally and how they’re utilizing it and trying to learn. And that takes time and effort and then approaching the right companies and then thinking outside the box. So, I’ve got a very smart team around me, but smarter than myself that helps with that. And some great vendors that are just happy to see opportunities and go for it, provided we pay them which we do naturally.

Minter Dial  23:59

Well. It sounds like the takeaway is that if you’re a senior leader in the company, and you’re not a techie, you’re going to need to bone up on the topic.

Adam Pisk  24:10

You It’s work from home, it’s all tech. Tech is the differentiator. You can’t do work from home well without top of the range tech and add on one of the things I’m happy a lot of my competitors haven’t seen that, where they’re trying to cut corners on tech. But it’s not supercharging their agents. The real point of difference for us is we want someone in the developing world. Yes, the university educated, yes, they’re smart. But if we power them with AI, you’ve got a 15x 20x ROI on that person. And that’s game changing. And that’s what we’re on a bad day for our internal staff, our recruiting team, our sales team, but also agents that work for our clients. And that’s our key point of difference. Otherwise, what is it? You’re just providing another virtual assistant in the Philippines?

Minter Dial  25:04

Yeah, I feel so many fronts. So, many companies are looking at AI as a as a cost cutter, corner cutter, as opposed to value add. And if you start thinking about it in that way, the investment in AI, you need to want to get the best you need to spend the time to develop it you feed in the proper learning databases.

Adam Pisk  25:26

Correct. And that is some research as to who do you partner that with? And how do you go about it? And that’s, that takes time, effort and focus. But for us, it’s a number one priority, we just see that as the real differentiator is utilization of tech, particularly in a work from home space, and particularly when your staff are coming from the developing world? How do you supercharge them to be more competitive with the Western world? And then how do you? How do you pay at $5 / hour and get someone who’s really valued at $50 an hour, or $100 an hour?

Minter Dial  26:04

So, last two questions for you, Nick, I’ve enjoyed this conversation a lot. The first is when you are recruiting these people, they are going to be outsourced to other companies, naturally, for a period of time. And so, you have to hire for certain personality, and then you have to match for your clients, the certain personality, how do your clients go about it, because I you know, in terms of digital transformation, there’s a whole lot of problems in companies and, and one of them may not be being forthright or honest about their own culture and what they are proposing what they’re looking for. So, I’m guessing just like when some companies, you have to go and you do the digital transformation for them, at some level, you’re also having to lean into culture of your clients.

Adam Pisk  26:59

Yeah, and not everyone has done outsourcing before, in fact, most people haven’t. So, it’s not that they’re not being upfront about their culture. We have a lot of clients, we have enterprise level clients, but we have a lot of small businesses. And small businesses don’t know about culture. We have clients that have 300 staff with us and clients that have one part time admin assistant, and everything in between. And so, what generally happens with that, particularly on the smaller end, is you do your best in the beginning to find someone that fits. But it takes a few eggs, often to make an omelet. And the first agent they hire might not be the agent they end up with as they find out more about their culture, who they work well with, and what skill sets they might end up actually needing. And then our team really is there to go for doesn’t go well, why didn’t it go? Well, and then we get to learn with them more about their culture and who’s going to be a better fit. So, it’s not a first time you wish it was? That would be great for everyone. But people have got to go in open minded to go okay, I’ve got to understand, I might have to go through a number of agents or a number of people to get the right fit.

Minter Dial  28:17

Yeah, so what I heard you say was that the that process if it’s the wrong person, you actually make the replacement for free?

Adam Pisk  28:24

Correct. We recruit for we always recruit for free. So, that’s the no risk guarantee, really with us where we’ll always recruit for free if it’s not the right fit.

Minter Dial  28:35

That’s a powerful statement. And in terms of your mix of offer, with these outsource to what are we talking mostly call centers, mostly administrative assistants? What’s How do you break down the mix of offers that you have? Or what the demand is from customers?

Adam Pisk  28:55

Yeah, it’s really varied. So, we operate in a multitude of industries, from medical to insurance, to real estate, to finance, to engineering, to architecture, to retail to e commerce, so a wide variety of industries and wide variety of roles. And yes, there are some more we have more admin back office roles probably than any other and we have accounting and bookkeeping is common and sales is common. But we also have software engineers and architects and civil engineers, drafts people. So, really, you look at it and go, Is this a job? Is this a role that needs to be physically present where I am? And if the answer is no, it can operate from a computer. We can find that person globally. And it’s just a it’s just a global employment perspective. Do I need to look within 10 Miles 20 kilometers, whatever it is of where I live, and where my office is to hire people? Or is this a role that I can broaden the search and try and get The best talent at the at the best value. And that’s really when someone’s thinking like that. That’s where we can come in and help.

Minter Dial  30:05

At the end of the day, Nick, it seems so Adam, it seems that it’s a you’re completely the opposite end of the trades, which plumbers, electricians, you can’t do that from a distance. You know, you got to go in and fix the blood and water and electricals Correct? I called you, Nick just now because I was on another. Sorry about that. That’s right. Last question. So, you’ve gone through these big pivots, you’re working with so many companies to get their outsourcing leading in uncertain times? What sort of lessons have you learned through your development, your own personal development, going through the pivot the COVID? And this growth that you’re going through? Because I mean, that’s at some level some something uncertain as well. I mean, how long will the growth go on for so what have you learned?

Adam Pisk  30:54

Until AI replaces all of us, and that’s a real threat for everyone. I say that half-jokingly and half-seriously, because the level of advancement even though the last couple of months that we’ve seen has been scary. And where that ends, I don’t know, at the moment, we’re embracing it, I don’t know where it ends up. But in terms of, of leadership lessons, for me, I one of the core things for me is when you’re running a remote team, particularly like we are it it is lonely for people, if you’re not constantly engaging, and managing. And you talked earlier on and I didn’t I didn’t delve into it. But you talked about trust being an issue with remote, etc. So, leading in these times, you’ve got to develop that level of trust with your staff, you have to trust them, and they have to trust you that you have their back. You’ve got to be in their face enough that they know that they’re valued, but not in their face enough that they know that you’re micromanaging. So, you’ve got to have that line. Training is hot from a when from a remote perspective, are people advancing careers, you’ve got to be very conscious that from a leadership perspective, it’s something we take very seriously. So, remote work is challenging to do it well. And I’m not saying that we’ve perfected it yet. But there’s a lot that we’ve learned and from a leadership perspective, it’s incorporating all those things in terms of decisions and communication with the broader team. And now it’s 1000s of people. But it’s, it’s having that, or all new staff in our immediate like, are in a team, I still speak to personally I still meet and there’s hundreds in that team, let alone our broader our broader agents. So, I think we need to be accessible. And you and you and you need to be strong in terms of those core values. And you need to stand for something. So, I’ve mentioned a lot of things there.

Minter Dial  32:52

And very appropriately in the end of the day, Adam, it’s a nuanced, a tough, complex story. And if if leadership was so drop dead simple, then we wouldn’t have books by the giving zine coming out about it, would we?

Adam Pisk  33:08

Yeah, I’m not saying I’m you’ve written books. I’m not I’m not I’m not ready to do it. But hopefully at the end of this journey, maybe I’ll have a story to tell.

Minter Dial  33:17

And all the same. You have a story to tell. And Adam, how can people find out more about you and get maybe look into some outsourcing they didn’t think about before in the way that you’d like to do that?

Adam Pisk  33:31

Sure. Our website brandwood.co. If anyone can visit that area that would that’s great. You can come to my LinkedIn, just under Adam Pisk or anyone feel free to email me directly Adam@bruntwork.co and happy to have a chat about outsourcing. Whether it’s right for you wrong for you if whether a company or not are happy to direct your people in other directions if we’re not right and happy to promote it. I think it’s such I’ve seen businesses scale so effectively with it. It’s such a powerful tool. I think it’s something more people should engage with or at least know more about.

Minter Dial  34:11

It seems like being a rider on your coattails do very well. So, Adam, thank you very much for coming on the show.

Adam Pisk  34:19

Thanks, Minter. Appreciate you having me.