Minter Dialogue with Daniel Carcillo

Please send me your questions — as an audio file if you’d like — to nminterdial@gmail.com. Otherwise, below, you’ll find the show notes and, of course, you are invited to comment. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to rate it here.

To connect with Daniel Carcillo:

• Check out Daniel Carcillo’s eponymous site here
• Find/follow Daniel Carcillo on LinkedIn
• Find/follow Daniel on X (formerly Twitter)

Other mentions/sites:

• Books mentioned: The Immortality Key (Brian Muraresku) and Lost Connections (Johann Hari)
• Here are a selection of other podcasts I have had on the topic of psychedelics:

  • Bringing wellness and mental health through psychedelics, with Synthesis Institute cofounder, Martijn Schirp (MDE507)

  • From Fashion Brand to Supervised Psychedelic Treatments at Nushama, with cofounder Jay Godfrey (MDE482)

  • Recapturing the Rapture, Rethinking God, Sex and Death with Best-selling Author Jamie Wheal (MDE435)

  • The Exciting Options and Solutions that Psychedelics can Provide for Many of our Most Important Pathologies, with the renowned researcher, Dr. Alex Belser (MDE520)

  • Making Well People Better with Psychedelic Therapy: Opening up Perspective, Taming the Ego and Inviting Intimacy

Further resources for the Minter Dialogue podcast:

Meanwhile, you can find my other interviews on the Minter Dialogue Show in this podcast tab, on Megaphone or via Apple Podcasts. If you like the show, please go over to rate this podcast via RateThisPodcast! And for the francophones reading this, if you want to get more podcasts, you can also find my radio show en français over at: MinterDial.fr, on Megaphone or in iTunes.
Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s (please excuse the quality of the sound!).

Transcription courtesy of Flowsend.ai, an AI full-service for podcasters

Minter Dial: Well, well, well. This is the first time — and I’ve done about 800 shows — I actually have a Stanley Cup champion on my show. A member of the Philadelphia Flyers. A true pioneer, I would say, in what you’re doing. So, Daniel, in your own words, who are you?

Daniel Carcillo: That’s a loaded question, naturally. Who am I? It’s something that is very hard to explain. Similar to. I think it’s almost impossible to explain because who I am is this thing or person behind my eyes.  So, it is my consciousness. It is not the body that I identify with. It is the. It is the. I’ll just call it a thing that helps me stay connected and keeps me happy. And I think it is godlike. I think it is deeply rooted and connected to nature. I believe in a few simple principles taken from, you know, most of our ideas are not our own ideas. And so, similar to how Alan Watts talks about the apple tree appling and the world being symptomatic of growing people, I believe we are born out of the world and not into it as we’ve, you know, are typically taught. And I believe that because of my experience with who I was in a prior life, which was an NHL player who was extremely violent and angry, and I enjoyed looking across the ice and table from another man and. And knowing that I can beat them up, knowing that I could impose my will. And that made me very sick. And I think you have to be in some ways sick to be violent. And the way that I got better was using natural mushrooms and in a manner that was very specific and intentional to saving my brain, health and quality of life. And the reason I believe that I’m born out of the world and that these mushrooms and this medicine helps me stay connected to my true purpose into what’s important in life, when I forget is because it fits perfectly into my receptors. Now I’m also, you know, well studied, and I can talk about the five HT2A receptors and how 80% or 90% are mostly in our gut, some in our brain. But I had these diagnoses of. Of that would be a death sentence to most. And it was only two ceremonies that helped me recover everything and has actually helped me excel in. In life and become the best version of myself. And that’s a lot to say because for, you know, 30 years of my life, I put everything consciously and unconsciously into hockey, and I was very successful at it, yet I was the sickest I’d ever been. So, you know, it goes back to kind of full circle of who I am. I’m. I’m a person that believes in being of service and I believe that there are simple truths to this life of mine that I’m living. And I believe in simplicity and I believe in surrounding myself with as much love as I can. And I believe that anything that I want in my life can come to me as long as I am the best version of myself.  So, I don’t believe that I get what I deserve. I believe that I get who I am. And right now I like who I am. I’m in shape. I’m, you know, being of service, I’m supporting myself and my family and the best manner possible. And I exercise and do hot and cold exposure and a good diet. And I like to think that I’m surrounded by people that really want to see me do well. And so, yeah, I hope that answers your question.

Minter Dial: Well, like, like any of these questions, hopefully they are fun for you to answer. When listening to you, Daniel, I have to think, or I posit sometimes the solution is within and the same mechanisms that you might have employed that someone else uses might not have had the same outcome. Do you think that there’s something that A needs to accompany you into this journey to that transition, or B, is it actually maybe something already within you that’s just then manifested through it? And in other words, can anybody get into this transformation or is there something that else that has to happen in order for it to work?

Daniel Carcillo:  So, I’ll try to tackle that in two parts. I think that first, firstly, yes, anybody can have what I have. And that’s because we are all made of the same stuff. The only thing that separates us, I think, are our belief systems and our knowings. And knowing something I think is very different than believing it. Belief systems are taught. Those are our religions, those are our education. The knowings are lived experiences. Those come with doing. And that’s why I listen to people that have lived experience over academic. I do not tend to listen to too many people that read things in a book and try to transcribe those things based off of having an MD or PhD or these monikers. And I think the barrier to entry, to being courageous enough, to shining a light onto yourself and asking what’s wrong and begging to be shown so that it doesn’t govern the rest of your life is extremely courageous. And that barrier to entry is suffering. And so, people tend to find this path in this medicine, which is deemed illegal not by a loving government, but because it frees people from the shackles of themselves. And it allows people who, you know, typically we’re a species of amnesia, we continue to forget. I still need this medicine to remind me every six months when the stresses of life become too much. And I really do believe that we have within us the innate ability to make ourselves sick or to heal ourselves simply by the thoughts that we think. And unfortunately, we live in a world where we are bombarded by fear-based thinking, by always thinking that we are less than or that we need to reach, especially in America, for a pill to help make us feel better. When in reality these medicines that do not come from nature, that are all synthetic, were built to let companies’ profit, profits before people, and they typically numb us out. And so, when we talk about psychedelics or mushrooms specifically, we are talking about being reborn in midlife, which I think is just the most phenomenal gift that we could ever be given. And this is not a panacea, this is not a one and done. This is something where if you ask the question and you seek it out honestly with no ulterior motives, you will always get the answer. And I really do believe in my heart of hearts, maybe because I’ve seen it with just under 400 people now over the last six years, that people can gain new perspectives, bring a perceived problem, whether that’s tied to trauma or a diagnosis that a doctor’s given them, or, well, people asking the question, well, how can I get better? I feel like there’s something holding me back that I don’t identify with, an indication that this, that this healthcare system’s given me. It’s just there’s an itch that I want to scratch or maybe a shackle or a bad habit that I want to break. And you come to ceremony, and you give up control. Because we don’t often talk about how little control we actually have, except for our effort and except for how honest we are. And you know, I think that honesty is directly correlated to how our life is playing out for us. And so, yeah, I really do believe that anybody can get this, which is very exciting. And that is also that. That is. You can look at the number of FDA trials. There are, for example, with, with just psilocybin, which is the active ingredient in magic mushrooms, which now, you know, this pharmaceutical industry knows it works.  So, there’s over 190 clinic clinical trials through the FDA right now using one substance. And so, I bring this up because, well, how can that be? How can one, one substance, one alkaloid or tryptamine in a mushroom which there’s hundreds of them. How can just psilocybin treat so many different indications like smoking cessation, end of life, anxiety for cancer patients, treatment resistant depression, MDD, major depressive disorder, OCD, PTSD disorders, the list goes on. How can that be? It’s tied to, to, you know, helping individuals really be confident enough to shift their perspective and then, you know, be very careful about. We can’t stop the thoughts that we have, but we can definitely be responsible for the emotions that we put towards those thoughts. And then as we apply an emotion that usually tends to have a reaction or an action. And so, you know, and I think that full circle is. Is life, you know.

Minter Dial: Oh, well, there are lots of things. My head, my little head is spinning around, as you can imagine. Daniel.

Daniel Carcillo: Yeah, and. Sorry, I. I’m. I’m actually, I am.

Minter Dial: This is.

Daniel Carcillo: I’m four days removed from a very large dose.  So, I tend to be able to, you know, when you come out, when you’re fresh from this, it’s. You can. The ability to problem solve and the ability to, you know, describe a point and elaborate on all of the different kind of subsections and nuances that go into thinking and emotions, and it’s just really cool. Quite remarkable.  So, sorry if I’m long winded right now.

Minter Dial: Don’t be. No, don’t be sorry. I know the point is that it just stimulated a whole bunch of thoughts, my little brain, who has been down the garden path and a few more, including Alice’s garden Path in Wonderland. Yes, I’ve enjoyed it. And yeah, I mean, on the pharmaceutical side, it’s remarkable how often they prefer to find a treatment than a cure because treatments are sort of subscriptions.

Daniel Carcillo: Yeah, we.  So, the pharmaceutical industry used to really be responsible enough to actually go to nature and, and pull out compounds and not be so concerned with intellectual property. And I really. Yeah, I really think it’s lost its way in that. You know, I think it was back in 2003 where, you know, well, we. We must associate depression with a chemical imbalance in the brain, and it has to do with serotonin. And so, if there’s an overproduction of serotonin, then we should make these SSRIs, these serotonin selective inhibitors. Okay, so we did that. But then in 2003 or 4, they came out with a study that said, no, we got it wrong. There, there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance. And, you know, and that study was put out there, and then it was cited by thousands of physicians. Yet we still prescribe SSRIs and antidepressants. And I, I think one of the benefits of social media and long form podcasts is that we were able to really decipher and discuss information. And so, if we know that there’s no chemical imbalance, but there’s a class of medications or treatments, as you put it, that are meant to treat them and we know they don’t work, why are we still prescribing them? And why are people still on so many of these medications that come with absolute crippling side effects? You know, I joke, we just opened the 13th legal above ground mushroom center in Portland, Oregon that can, you know, still federally illegal, but statewide legal regulated framework where we can actually give people these mushrooms above ground. And you know, I question, you know, like the risk that is associated with doing that and why these substances are illegal and why right in front of our face. You know, these doctors and physicians in this industry is allowed to continue to try to numb people out with, with these, with these medications that have these side effects and the side effects of, you know, I’m thinking a lot about marketing tools and language associated with how to, how to get around stigma that’s associated with these substances. And you know, the side effects of mushrooms are, are pretty profound in that they don’t increase suicidal ideation, they increase your want and ability to live, they don’t increase self-doubt, they increase your confidence in the decisions that you know, you need to have to make based off of your gut instinct. Because that instinct, that connection to your higher power, that feeling that you get when you think about something to do that feels good and you call it your gut instinct and you get that warmth and that trigger and that feeling. Yet then we tend to let the lizard brain come in and make up all the scenarios that could go wrong in the future. Well, after a mushroom ceremony, that brain is not. That part of your brain doesn’t talk. You just immediately know what you need to do and you do it without any fear of repercussions or consequences. And it’s usually the right thing to do. We don’t get restless and we’re not able to sleep. Our sleep is improved. People with neurological issues like concussion, they’re able to problem solve, they’re able to, they have energy, they have no brain fog or brain fatigue. You know, so these are the consequences.

Minter Dial: Of taking secondary positive effects.

Daniel Carcillo: Absolutely. Which is.

Minter Dial: Have you, did you read Lost Connections?

Daniel Carcillo: I haven’t, no.

Minter Dial: You’re in a hurry. I must put that out There as one. I know, I know you don’t necessarily like the authors so I’m thinking oh I’ve got my books all over the place but it’s a great book. And the other one I would highly recommend in the same vein is the Immortality Key by Brian Murarescu.

Daniel Carcillo: I have that one. Yeah, I’ve read that one.

Minter Dial: Totally to be read and many have. I read about them. You talked about the lizard brain. It feels like the lizard brain is actually how media and government is as opposed to what happens. And I loved one of the anecdotes I have is that in order to be on the board at Google you had to have gone to a burning man and or taken some LSD or some sort of, or, or a trip. I think, I think that you know and I’ve written about how LSD and psilocybin can be really good for making well people better.  So, I, I, you’re in, you’re in a happy zone here. But it does seem though in order to get to there you do need to have some prerequisites and in order for it to be successful because if you go into it close minded if you go into it with maybe not being in a good place or in not surrounded by a proper surrounding people that are. That you feel are good then any then then the results won’t quite be there.  So, you do need to prepare it in a way it’s not like for everybody anytime just like that. You need to be a little bit more thoughtful about how you set it up.

Daniel Carcillo: Absolutely. Yeah. There was a belief in the past that this should only be given to thought leaders. That this should only be given to self actualizing people meaning people that are possibly more high operating than, than others, more introspective can handle being told the truth and harshly because that’s what some of these substances do sometimes, sometimes it’s pure bliss. But knowing why you are doing the thing that you’re doing, regardless of what it is in this context, taking one of these powerful tools to open yourself up. Usually there’s a question that, that you bring to it or an intention or a reason, you know, but you also can. There’s Burning man or there’s concerts and, and people don’t need to feel guilty. I’m in the camp of not putting too much judgment onto people about taking this at a Grateful Dead concert at the Sphere and still feeling great. Yeah. And maybe drinking two drinks instead of eight. Maybe feeling less hungover. Maybe that’s why you take microdoses. That’s okay, that’s, that shouldn’t be demonized. And yes, of course this can help well people as well. I do not identify with any concussion related symptoms, with any neurodegenerative disease diagnosis anymore. I haven’t for five years.  So, I’m a well person.  So, should I be criticized for the last five years of my mushroom use just because I’m interested in where we came from, where I am in my life and who I am? The first question that you asked me, I listened to Wayne Dyer, I listened to Alan Watts, I listened to these philosophers who asked these questions because like you, I like being triggered. I like being triggered to think and to think deeply. I’ve always been that way. And that’s what gives me energy. That’s why I continue to use this, this medicine. And so, if you’re an employee at a, at a hedge fund and you are looking for an edge in problem solving or you can use this, it’s okay, you know, that’s okay. And some people will be up in arms about it, but you know, if we’re, we’re all here for the same reason I think right is to, is to be free, try as much as we can to be free from suffering, to help each other. And I think the reality of, of all of this is that I don’t know myself without somebody else, without discussions like this, without reading what other people write, without learning about other cultures and how they did it and then making an assessment and a decision that feels good for me, you know, and so I, I think the number one thing that these ceremonies do for me is just give me the confidence, make me, you know, in, in knowing that I’m, I’m doing okay, they make me a lot less self-conscious and, and they just really help me stay on a good path.

Minter Dial: I, I, this might be a little bit personal, but into what extent is this something you do or at least share? How much of the sharing are you doing with your wife, Eva? I mean, I know you’re happily married and I, I, I, I’m, I am too. And I, I do it myself. I, I, you know, but if you’ve never done it before, how easy is it to really explain?  So, I don’t know where, how do that.

Daniel Carcillo: I, so my wife has never done it, she’s tried microdosing, she has migraines and that, that worked well for her and I am okay with that. You know, I, I, my wife is a little bit of a, I wouldn’t say a straight edge, but the drinking doesn’t agree with her and, and she’s a mom of four. And you know, I don’t want to say it’s just women, but like some people just like being or thinking that they’re in control all the time, you know, and being a little bit more rigid and they can’t really, you know, get to where I am right now, which is. Or where I was right six years ago, which is I didn’t care about living because I was in so much pain. And so, when that happens, you can easily. I was just so tired from, from living, from the way I was living, from how hard I lived 30 years. It’s why a lot of athletes don’t, don’t see past 40 musicians, Etc. It’s just a really, really tough life. And so, I was ready to lay down and just have this medicine, do what it needed to do. And, and so I gave up control. In giving up control, it showed me my life. You know, it was like a kaleidoscope and pictures and I was actually able to put myself in a number of different people’s souls as they were interacting with me as I was still in my body to really get a good perspective of how proud people were of me. Because I felt so ashamed and guilty for stepping away so early. I really, it showed me that I’m okay and I can unconditionally love myself. I did have a lot of guilt for the pain that I inflicted on myself, my family, my friends and guys that I was playing against because I was really good at hurting people and I was really tough and there’s still that dog inside of me. I just know how to really control it now. And so. But it also showed me too, like it taught me to think about how many things had to go right for something good to happen on the ice. You know, I was not in control of the 10 other people, right? I wasn’t in control of which way the puck bounced that night. I wasn’t in control of the defenseman making a bad pinch. And you know, I wasn’t in control of the puck hitting the top of the pad instead of the bottom of the pad and bouncing right on my stick and then being able to put it in the net there were. It just really showed me how little I am in control. But what. And so, you know, people start to ask, well, does that mean, you know, we don’t have free will or well, what. What are we in control of? And constantly, as I groomed over my life over this five-hour period, I realized that when I was Showing up for myself when I was putting in effort and being ready for the opportunity is when I was most rewarded. When I was maybe trying to take the easy way out, when I was a little greedy, when I was a little envious and jealous and maybe wanted revenge. I might as well have dig into two graves, because that’s when I got hurt, and that’s when I didn’t get the things that I wanted. I wasn’t rewarded.  So, it really just. I came away with just really simple lessons of, you know, the reason you had so many good opportunities in your last five years in the league is because you were. You were almost sober. You know, you were connected. You. You weren’t abusing your body and your mind and other people. You know, you. You still had a job to do. You still stood up for people. But because you were. You were living the right way, your luck was almost a sure thing. And granted, we didn’t win every year, but I had four chances in the last five years of my NHL career with three different teams to go to the finals. And we won twice and we lost twice. And the margin of error in professional hockey is just really small. And you know what people say? They’re like, well, it just wasn’t our time. The hockey gods didn’t bless us, you know, when in reality, maybe the other team wanted it more than we did, just a little bit more, you know, and maybe that’s why they got rewarded that year. So, you know, these. These ceremonies can be really, really special in. In just gaining so much understanding, which then cuts through a lot of the shame and guilt that people, I think, with addictions and with past traumas and carry with them sometimes for the rest of their life, you know, and. And I was able to see it, know it, feel it, and then let it all go, you know, there were still. Was still. You know, I’ll leave it at this. There were still things I needed to kind of clean up. Like you make your apologies, right? You share with people these. These newfound realizations, and you just hope that you didn’t damage enough, you didn’t cause enough damage for them to say, well, of course I accept your apology. And some people said, you don’t even need to apologize for that, you know? Yeah, pretty. Pretty amazing medicine.

Minter Dial: What I’m hearing is that last five years, you had some letting go already happening. You were feeling in a better place. You were like a purer version of you. Does that mean that you started this journey then? And if you didn’t, would you recommend that actually, these Journeys happen even in professional sports midway through the career.

Daniel Carcillo: Yeah.  So, we work with a lot of guys that are taking these journeys. Mid-season, there’s a big Christmas break for a reset. We work with guys right before training camp, and then we work with athletes right after the season to get a reset to, you know, and there’s a different number of reasons. Right. These medicines work on three levels, the mind, body, and the spirit.  So, it helps the body and the mind flush inflammation, it reconnects brain hemispheres that may have been shut down due to trauma and all the hits. And then spiritually, you get to ask the question, some guys are at the later stage of their career, do I want to keep doing this? Some guys are early on, why am I doing this? Like, why am I putting myself through all of this? Does, does this make sense? You know, am I doing this for myself, my dad, other people? Am I doing it for the glory? Am I doing it for. Because I really like it, you know, should I keep going? And, and if all the answers are yes, then, you know, some people are just come to it just to flush the inflammation. They’re potent anti-inflammatories. You know, I’ve had people in ceremony that just talk about how many toxins they feel and heavy metals they’re extracting or releasing. So, yeah, lots of athletes do it, you know, on smaller levels with microdoses. It increases hand, eye coordination, it increases balance. You know, it increases processing speed as you can maybe see and hear now, problem solving, which are all like, potent tools for athletes. The faster you react, the less you’re thinking, getting rid of the lizard brain. The better you are, the faster you are, you know.

Minter Dial: Yeah, I mean, I, I’m a huge hockey fan. I haven’t had a chance really, to talk about how much I love hockey on this, my podcast, because I don’t usually talk about it, but I mean, I, I, I, I’ve been supporting the Philadelphia Flyer since 1973, which was, I came home, I came to America from my boarding school, where I was allowed one hour of television a week. And so, I would sneak into the maid’s quarter. We had maids at my grandfather’s, and they had a tiny little black and white box with VHF and, you know, aerials.  So, it was fuzzy, black and white, small. And I just loved watching the Flyers. Yeah. And so, I, I think about how my, my roommate at Yale was captain of the team and he had a couple of NHL players on his team, and the speed of the game and the hitting the puck is so Hard. I have a puck in front of me, so that’s a constant reminder. And I’ve often thought, you know, if I think of like a Gretzky type person, has sort of LSD perspicacity because, you know, we always talk about him having eyes in the back of his head. Some hockey players had that I certainly felt and had played some sports under the influence of psychedelics and you know, like, usually things like Frisbee and Hacky sack because that goes with the territory. But it’s amazing how sometimes you feel like you could thread the eye of a needle with a Frisbee because you’re so in the flow.

Daniel Carcillo: My brother-in-law was over for Christmas and he tried some or for Thanksgiving and he tried some for the first time. And I asked him, I could kind of see him. You know, he’s like, I really need to go outside and like, cool. Like, you know, that’s typical. Some people, you know, we want to walk, right? Want to get. And. And then, you know, I, he’s like, this is really different. This is really. I was so worried and I’m well, what do you mean? I asked him to explain what he meant and he just said that everything felt slower. And that’s really what it is, right? When you’re describing that flow state, when you’re describing being so locked in to the present moment where everything else fades away, you’re fully connected and there’s no anxiety, no fear, and you are operating at a different frequency and level of consciousness and everything does feel slower, yet you can still do things in real time, sometimes faster, you know, than, than others.  So, it’s, it’s a really unique intelligence that, that this medicine can give you. And then, you know, the thing I love about it is that there’s no, there’s no neuroscientist on earth that’s ever, ever going to be able to explain what I just explained, what we just explained. They can talk about norepamine and all these different chemicals and. But you know, they don’t. They’re never going to know. They’re never going to be able to tell me or anybody else. We can hypothesize, which is why I love philosophers and discussions like this in writing about what we think, who I think I am, but nobody’s ever going to be able to tell me who is doing this. Like who is the thinker? You know, am I, am I verbalizing things when I think about them? You know, what is that voice? Who is that voice? And I think that’s really intriguing. But I also. Maybe that’s why I like mushrooms so much, is because I think for a select few number of hours, and then for days, weeks, months afterwards, you seem to be connected to a different type of intelligence, and nothing lasts forever. But the more that I use these mushrooms, the more I talk about how I think they use me, because right now I can feel like they’re alive. You know, when you’re a habitual mushroom user and you talk about them, you know, I can feel them living through me. It’s really quite remarkable.

Minter Dial: Oh, well, you know, you can imagine. I know how much I tap into that and that idea of the slowness in the flow. What’s amazing is to be able to be in real time, being able to operate because your body’s moving. And if, especially if you’re trained, you kind of know how to do. I used to play a lot of squash, and I still play paddle and lawn tennis and. And these games where the ball’s coming at speed, but when you’re in the flow, you see the ball, you know, tennis ball feels as big as a soccer ball, where, you know, and it’s so easy to hit it right where you want to hit it because you’re. You can read the scene, you know. You know, the letters in the small print in Made in USA is tagged on a ball.

Daniel Carcillo: Yeah, There’s. I mean, you know, the basketball guys that get into those grooves, right? The net looks. Looks so much wider, right? The golfers that are having that round of their life, when they go to putt the hole looks massive. They can’t miss. And. But I think that goes to this belief system, right? That same thing that we talked at the beginning of this, where it’s a belief, it’s a knowing that that thing is going to go in like you are unequivocally never shaken. And I think that’s a pretty unique quality about us, about where does that come from? And, you know, I know a lot of people maybe don’t understand this, but where that comes from, that confidence comes from practice. That confidence comes from the ability to continually put yourself in that situation. And then when it matters the most, when millions of eyes are on you, you do it as an action, as if you’re, you know, you’re just practicing again.

Minter Dial: Is the famous 10,000 hours maybe coming into play at that point? There’s so many questions. Yeah, so many questions. I want to get into one. I just want to circle back on one first one, which is about your wife and letting go. And I have I’ve had on my show a guy called John Purkiss, who calls himself Banahasta Otherwise. And he talks about the power of letting go. And it feels like actually the inability to take mushrooms or LSD is often around the inability or the intolerance for the idea of letting go, which is the very benefit that it provides.

Daniel Carcillo: I mean, none of us know why we’re here. You know, if we really. If we really think about it. I think often about why I can’t remember the first two or three years of my life. I, you know, I’m. I’m fully aware and. Okay, that these questions that I ask, I’m never going to get the answers to. The closest I feel to this understanding of what I’m doing here is when I do this medicine or when I am in the months after, when I can watch the signs, I call them God winks. When I can be connected to the decisions that I’m making with the people that I choose to make them with. And I can see these God winks. It’s the time when you think about the person that you want to call, that you haven’t called in a long time that you really love, and then all of a sudden they call you or they text you out of the blue. It’s been months. That’s the type of consciousness or connectivity that I think, you know, we all possess and that we can all tap into. And, you know, this letting go of control is really a belief, a belief in yourself that if you do the right things, if you put the hours in, if you put the training in, if you have this outlook of optimism instead of pessimism that your life and you will become the person that’s worthy of attracting anything into your life. You know, and I truly believe it and I’ve seen it. And I can look back on my life and. And you can take it both ways. I look back on my life when I was addicted and when I was angry, frustrated, sad. That’s what my life was all about. That’s who I attracted into my life. And. And I, you know, when I was on the flip side of it, you know, when I was. When I had an outlook that, you know, I was grateful for everything, even the suffering, then I was being rewarded, and I was just living in peace. I wasn’t being rewarded with, you know, these. The big house or, you know, a big contract. I was being rewarded with peace of mind, with just, you know, one thing I’ve been tackling and I’ve been writing a lot, is this notion of what God is or the universe or the higher power that I have. My wife asked me to go to church the other day and I just. I think it’s great for my kids. I grew up in the Catholic church, but I don’t believe in it. And I’ll let them. I don’t tell them this, but I’ll let them make their own decisions when they’re old enough. I tell my wife that my church is nature. That when I’m on my bike outside or running and just thinking is when I feel most connected. And I believe that this belief system or this knowing system that I have curated that I’ve now strengthened over six years of exercise, good diet and medicine work, is that is my religion or my church, or that’s my. That’s everything to me. When. When I am not feeling or seeing God winks or getting these kind of gut instinct feelings and seeing the things that I need to do and seeing the things that I probably shouldn’t do, then I do tend to start to feel that I am not necessarily in control. But that’s okay, you know, I. I’m not a passive person, you know, in. In that, oh, well, this is happening. I. It’s just happening. It. I had no control over it, when in fact, my control that I can exert is the effort that I, that I put towards not putting too many bad emotions to the thoughts that I have. I can’t stop thinking. I can’t stop thinking of thinking. But I can be very careful with the emotions and, and the people I let in my life and my life’s purpose. You know, so when I’m. Yeah, go ahead.

Minter Dial: I just, I need to know whether you. With the beginning of your path to this better version of you seems to have happened midway through your career, or at least the NHL portion of it. You said five years before the end where you get the four Stanley cup and the two wins. You what, what, what did you start this journey? That point? And that was a. Intentional and that was. Was that dosed, or is that sort of just the beginning of some sort of haphazard approach to the thing?

Daniel Carcillo:  So, the beginning of my journey was 25, when I had to ask for help. Um, so at 20, I signed the biggest. 21. I signed the biggest contract of my career and I ended up getting arrested in Arizona for dui.  So, at the best height of my life, most success I’d ever had, I. I got arrested. I had to go to jail after the season for 90 days, and luckily I didn’t Hurt anybody. But that introduced me to the substance abuse program in the NHL. When you get a felony, they obviously, they start treating you like an addict. And I fought it for four years because I knew I didn’t have the phenomena of craving to alcohol. I knew I wasn’t an alcoholic. But you have to listen to them, right?  So, that, that event started this path of, you know, maybe you should start looking at your life, right, and living a different way. I didn’t actually start living a different way until the next four years. I got all of my injuries, pretty much all of my injuries. ACL reconstructive surgery for my PCL, bunch of chair tears in my ankles eight times I sprained my mcl, neck tears, no left labrum in my shoulder, three broken noses, four lost teeth, five concussions, and I was close to death. I luckily had two surgeries scheduled back to back to. I had a tear in my abdomen, it came right off my pelvis, so they had to staple that back together. And then I had a left labrum tear in my hip. And when I was at the Flyers, they did these surgeries 10 days back to back. And it was the first time at 25 that I got introduced to opiates. And I said, whoa, what are these? These, These, these are amazing. They take away all of the pain, suffering, emotional pain, guilt, shame. They basically, you know, at that point I was still, I was really tired and I hit a wall. Luckily, because of the substance abuse program, I became addicted very quickly and dangerously addicted over like three or four month period. And so, I had to ask for help.  So, I knew where to ask for help because of that DUI when I was 21.  So, that saved my life.  So, I detoxed myself on my parents couch that summer. I just signed a one year deal.  So, I was already kind of like, hey, you know, one of two ways, right? You’re either three decisions, you know, you’re gonna get better, you’re gonna die, or you’re gonna be in these institutions or these rehabs or jails, you know, so. And then you’re going to lose your career.  So, what do you want to do?  So, I detoxed and I went to a rehab. I asked for help, you know, and at 25, that was the first time that I actually started to learn about everything that we’re talking about here, like these different parts of me. I started to learn about how trauma has affected my life, mainly the hazing rituals that exist in junior hockey. I started to see and connect past traumas to how I Was living my life to how I was, you know, why I felt so good. Numbing out with synthetic heroin that are called opiates that doctors can legally prescribe. Yeah. And so, I mean that saved my life. Asking for help. Those opiates, that addiction saved my life. The DUI saved my life, you know, and all of these things that you perceive is so bad that could be life altering in such a negative way ended up just saving me. And so, I went to this amazing rehab in Malibu. It since got burnt down in the fires. It was called the Canyon. And it was just a perfect time. There’s no coincidences. There was amazing therapist there. I. I have a best friend that I still talk to in Chicago. And I learned about meditation. I learned about how to introspectively look at how I was living my life. And then the. The consequences of those actions. Good, bad, indifferent. And I can just start. It just gave me a little bit of a peek into. You have to be responsible, you know. And if you are responsible for these simple things, you know, you’re still not in control of what’s going to come. But there was this knowing that these good things would start to happen. And so, I committed myself. I stayed sober for two and a half years or so. And then my last five years in the league, you know, like I said, I went to Stanley cup finals with four times, three different teams, won twice, made some really good friendships, met my wife. And so, that was really the beginning, you know, at 25 to a pretty profound shift.

Minter Dial: Well, I have to tie a few things you said from in the various comments. First of all, I love the way you reframe the sufferings that you’ve had as lifesaving. You know, there could have been life altering or they were life altering, but it could been, you know, life-deadening. And. And I also think within this whole story, the idea of fear of death is very base to the whole story.

Daniel Carcillo: But it’s what I want you. It’s really funny you mentioned that. That was my ayahuasca journey. I’ve always been deathly afraid of death and thought about it way too much, you know, and. But yeah, you know, my ayahuasca journey was. Was that the intention I brought. Epic.

Minter Dial: Hence my enjoyment of the grateful bed. Because once you know you die, you are much more grateful. But the way I wanted to go in this there I want to tie a few thoughts I’ve had. One is you often talk about in your interviews, Daniel, about how hockey or sports in general is parallels of life and you, the enforcer, the car bomb, were another type of person. The parallel I want to go with is that oftentimes a lot of the CEOs that I hang out with aren’t pretty people. I wouldn’t characterize them as good people. In fact, I think most times the easiest route to success is being a complete asshole. And. And then they suffer the consequences later. With a midlife crisis, they. They. They. They realize that just having Lamborghinis doesn’t actually bring happiness. And. And then so. And so, forth.  So, that’s one thing. And then the second thing you said was somehow the purpose or the way you get through this is. Is to know that we’re all trying to have freedom from suffering. And I would argue that life is about dealing with suffering and challenge and that it’s only through challenge and suffering you actually build resilience.  So, how do. How do you square that peg, you know, success being actually maybe tributary to being an. Being that darker, more evil person, and that you build resilience through suffering? If you didn’t have all that suffering, you wouldn’t have had all that success.

Daniel Carcillo: No doubt. Yeah. Environments create the beast, you know, or the angel or both. I mean, so, you know, when you’re on a path to recovery, everybody thinks it’s all angels and gold dust and running through sunflower fields. You know, it’s not like life is always opposites. Life is always anger and happiness and, you know, violence and healing. And so, I don’t compartmentalize any of that. I just see my life as absolutely fundamental and necessary. Every single event. The parents that I chose, the brothers that I had, the childhood successes and traumas, the suffering, the perceived suffering. Like, some of the stuff that I thought about my childhood and then later talking to my parents about it was like. And now thinking about. It’s like, man, we had such an amazing childhood, but for some reason, I was so sensitive, I’m an empath, that, like, I just thought that it was woe is me, but, like, because that shaped me into this hungry beast that was able to go through these really hard workouts and these really hard. This really hard sport and. And be successful at it, you know, put in more work than the other human being and actually think it was fun, you know,  So, I think that we need. We need these. These things. We need to suffer. We need to take advantage. And, you know, this last ceremony that I did was a lot about. A couple people were like, wow, that was. It seemed dark. And it’s not dark. It wasn’t Dark. We were able to look at the situations of the games. And I look at life as a game. I look at the FDA as a game. I look at entrepreneurship as a game. I look at business as a game. There’s sports, there’s. All of this is really a game, you know, and so if we gamify it, there’s rules to the games, right? There’s unspoken rules and then there’s written rules. And with business, right, if you are better than the next person, you can, you can get rich and you can win. Now, is it bad if, for example, I have a business and you have a business, we’re in the same industry, I work harder at it, I do better because I can see more angles. And eventually I come and buy your company, right? Is that. Should I feel guilty about that? I don’t believe you should. If you did things in the right manner so you purchased the company, you get to closing and then somebody wants to retrade the deal. I want to retrade the deal because I found something in the fine print. That’s where I draw the line is when you want to. When you’ve beaten somebody, but you feel the need to kick them when they’re down, you feel the need to take another pound of flesh. That’s the part that I don’t like about business, that if you can steer clear of, then you should feel good about the win because you put in more effort and you didn’t. You didn’t do it in a malicious way. You were just better.

Minter Dial: The intentionality was there.

Daniel Carcillo: Exactly.  So, now, you know, if you’re somebody that likes to take advantage, you know, you will see it in someone’s life, right? You know, you see the CEOs with the boats and the big houses, but you. What you don’t see or what you may not see is the addiction is the things that are happening behind closed doors with the families, with the dynamics, with. And I’ve been around some of the richest people in the world. A lot of them are. They have a lot of issues, you know, and so what I say is your consequences of actions, and I agree with you, this is a longer road, right, that I’m. That I’m taking that, that, you know, doing things, quote, unquote, the right way, you have to put more effort in, you have to get more touches. But eventually, you know, when you get there, the amount of abundance is going to be poured upon you is. Is going to be like drinking from a fire hose. You’re not going to be able to stop it. And then, you know, the. The results are. You don’t have to worry about what may happen to your kids when they go to college because of how big of a piece of shit you were to other people.

Minter Dial: You’re not looking over your shoulder. I wrote a book called you lead, where the subtitle is being yourself makes you a better leader. And leaning into that. I’m aware of time, Daniel, and I’m ferociously needing to ask you a little bit about your hockey career. You had such a great career. I loved following you when you were Flyers. Do you. You’ve scored, as. I think my. The tally is 55 goals. You had these four Sanny championship battles. Do you. Looking back at all that, what’s the narrative? Do you. Do you feel like it’s all wrong? Fights are miserable. Hockey has gone AWOL as far as the real values that it used to have. How do you perceive NHL hockey today?

Daniel Carcillo: I mean, I think it’s one of the most remarkable sports on earth. You know, I really do. And the sport of hockey. Right. Do the corporations have. Does the NHL have its issues? Sure, but it’s. It’s a. It’s a. It’s awarded me so much. You know, I’m really in. In such a different place in my life. I do not entertain any type of victimhood mindset. I do not blame anybody or anything for what may have happened. Do I still think that this league may need to be held accountable because some people are dead and can’t speak for themselves? Like my friend Steve Montador? Absolutely.  So, will I be a key witness in his trial? For sure. Because I believe in accountability. I believe in continuing to highlight, to try to make people safe. My son plays hockey. Do I want him to aspire to get into the NHL? I don’t think that way. You know, I just. He likes it. It’s fun. He’s proud of his dad. He knows exactly what I did. Watches all the hockey highlights and fight videos and all that stuff with all his buddies. He thinks it’s amazing. But I’ve also sat him down and told him, like, how hard it was and, And. And to try to apply that type of discipline to everything you do in your life, you know, so there’s a lot of life lessons. The NHL, I think, is in a really good spot. They’re. They’re trying to clean up, you know, the head hits. The age of hitting has been moved up to 14 years old. Will people. Is there a risk associated? Absolutely. Does the NHL admit a link between repetitive head trauma, CTE. They don’t. Do I care about that plight or fight? No. The reason I don’t is because in my first ceremony, the mushroom said to me, we’re going to heal your brain. We’re going to make you better. You go dance your dance. Don’t look back. Stop highlighting everything that’s wrong with the world and with this league and start creating everything that is good. There’s always going to be sickness. Corporations are going to put profits over people, and you just need to be healthy and sound of mind and ready to, you know, create these programs and accept these people that, that are sick and help them get well.  So, that’s where I stand. And, you know, I think the sport is different, like I said, than the actual NHL. But I just really don’t live in that world anymore, you know, so.

Minter Dial: My, my, the way I’m seeing or relating into what you’re saying, you know, I look at a match and I know that there’s that sort of morbid interest when a fight happens as a spectator. I played rugby for 18 years, five concussions on the rugby pitch. And in England, they’re now talking about having contactless rugby at school. And so, this. But the other narrative that I hold dear to is that risk is what life’s about. And if we remove all, all forms of risk. Well, if my, My typical phrase is this. Adventure without risk is not an adventure. Life without adventure is not a life. Therefore, I, I need to integrate. And I think this is especially true for boys. But I don’t want to be too sexist. We. We need elements of risk in our life to feel enlivened. And so, if we remove all things that can cause damage, well, we’ll not have this suffering, will not have these awakenings from these sufferings. And so, we, it’s kind of having a balance where we, we do kind of accept the. We have a tolerance for risk as opposed to trying to get rid of it all.

Daniel Carcillo: Risk is, is it makes you feel alive. You know, the men are meant to compete. Men are meant to go to war. And this life, now that I’m a civilian would be so boring without professional sports, without being able to watch gladiators get onto the ice, go into the arena and do the thing that most people only dream of when in reality, if they started young enough and applied themselves and had. If that was their path, anybody could do it, you know, and so I agree with you that adventure and risk, they’re so necessary to being a man. And you’re not sexist by just highlighting what men are. And I think so much of the society is trying to soften what we are and who we are and that dog that is in us. And so, when you start asking the question, should fighting not be allowed? Should hitting not be allowed? I don’t think we should let kids hit at 4. I think that’s a little irresponsible. But we didn’t know the science that we know now when I started. But should there be hitting and fighting in sport? In hockey? Yes, absolutely there should. Right. And should we tell these guys the risk associated so that. And not lie to them like they did to us? Yes. And then would still sign on the dotted line. I’ve said it a million times. Well, if you knew what you knew now. Absolutely. I take that risk and I fight for the glory because it made me feel alive.

Minter Dial: You know, there’s that issue of accountability that you talked about.

Daniel Carcillo: Yeah, I’ve always had that, you know, that and I’ll always have that. Right. Like if somebody tries to, you know, get one up on me, then I feel like I need to put them in their place so that they don’t do it to the next person. You know, that’s. That’s always been innately ingrained in me.

Minter Dial: Pay it forward in another way. All right,  So, I, I must call this to a close. I’m just devastated that the time ran out for your Wesana Health. You have another startup that you’re now running, Chapter five Foundation, which I wanted to talk about but couldn’t. Ah, but, you know, so tell us where and who should be going to Visit West Chapter 5 Foundation and your current position. If you could tell us more and give some links so I can send people scurrying to find out more about you.

Daniel Carcillo: Sure, yeah.  So, we saw in health, we actually, you know, sold off the drug development program, we sold off the clinics.  So, that’s, you know, just a empty shell that’s winding down. But it was an amazingly, you know, important part of my life and a lot of life lessons about capital markets and synthetic medicine and knowing where I want to play and where I don’t. And so, right now it’s come full circle back to, to giving people natural, full spectrum mushroom experiences in a legal, above ground setting and environment in Portland, Oregon. So, Oregon has created Measure 109. It’s a regulated framework and I own the 13th above ground legal mushroom center. To be able to deliver this medicine to people, to have these transformative experiences and be a catalyst, an opportunity in a safe and warm environment to be able to grow, to improve your life.  So, that’s happening. It’s called Experience Onward. You can go to Instagram, experience onward experience onward.com and you can follow me. @Daniel arcillo13 on Instagram, @DanielCarcillo, LinkedIn, Facebook, @CarBombBoom13 on, on Twitter. And yeah, just feels really good to know why you’ve been put here.  So, I appreciate you having me on.

Minter Dial: It’s been a tremendous pleasure. I feel very many links and somehow hopefully one day maybe we’ll have a chance to share more. Come to London, come to Paris, look me up. I may otherwise have to come to Chicago and track you down. Daniel.

Daniel Carcillo: That’d be great. Yeah, let’s do it again. That was fun.

Minter Dial: You take care, Daniel. Thanks again for coming on.

Daniel Carcillo: Okay, see you, buddy.

Minter Dial: Bye.