Minter Dialogue with Sara Bartlett

In this episode, I sit down with Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett, a dynamic HR consultant and executive coach based in Cleveland. We explore her unexpected journey from aspiring mechanical engineer to a leader in organisational behaviour and change management. Sara shares insights into the challenges and opportunities within the HR landscape, emphasising the importance of understanding the psychological aspects of change. We also delve into her podcast, “Can I Offer You Some Feedback?“, discussing the nuances of giving and receiving feedback in both personal and professional contexts. Sara highlights the significance of trust and relationship-building in effective communication. Throughout our conversation, we touch on the evolving nature of healthcare, the role of empathy in leadership, and the complexities of transparency in the workplace. Join us for a thought-provoking discussion that offers valuable perspectives on leadership, change, and the art of feedback.

Please send me your questions — as an audio file if you’d like — to nminterdial@gmail.com. Otherwise, below, you’ll find the show notes and, of course, you are invited to comment. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to rate it here.

To connect with Sara Bartlett:

• Find/follow Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett on LinkedIn
• Find/follow Sara’s MOD Network on Twitter/X: @modnetworkllc
• Check out the MOD Network, of which Sara is founder and Principal Consultant
• Send a message to Sara = podcast@mod.network

Further resources for the Minter Dialogue podcast:

Meanwhile, you can find my other interviews on the Minter Dialogue Show in this podcast tab, on Megaphone or via Apple Podcasts. If you like the show, please go over to rate this podcast via RateThisPodcast! And for the francophones reading this, if you want to get more podcasts, you can also find my radio show en français over at: MinterDial.fr, on Megaphone or in iTunes. Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s (please excuse the quality of the sound!).

Transcription courtesy of Flowsend.ai, an AI full-service for podcasters

Minter Dial: Well, Sara Bartlett, great to meet you. This is always fun to meet someone through the podcast. Usually I know people and I bring you in, but you and I have been put together because we’re both part of the wonderful Evergreen Podcast Network. So, in your own words, let’s start with a little fun question. Who is Sara?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: That is indeed a fun question. But thank you, Minter, for having me here. Who is Sara? Sara is currently in Cleveland. I am a mother of two fabulous girls, and I am actively involved in our HR community here, which is quite robust despite our small size of a city. And I have the opportunity to work with clients across, mostly regionally, doing HR consulting, executive coaching, and leadership training. And as we mentioned on the side, I have a little podcast. But. But I’m sure we’ll talk about that in a little bit. But again, it’s a pleasure to be here with you.

Minter Dial: Congratulations on your two little daughters. You and I were just chatting a little bit about our pasts and so on, and your background is interesting. So, give us a little bit about the background of who you are and how you got to where you are in Cleveland. And by the way, you said, for now, does Cleveland is a moving piece.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: You know, I think that Cleveland is a city that also embraces change and evolves. And so I think oftentimes, you know, when Cleveland’s mentioned in popular media, it’s as a joke. I think we have some great spokespeople that are doing a bit of a job of revising that. But I say for now, as I’ll keep it open, who knows what the future holds? And I think, you know, when you reflect back on either your life or your career, no one would have guessed the steps that you took or the path that you took. And I think whenever I talk to students who are like, how do I do what you do? And I said, you will never be able to recreate the unlikely path that took me in this place. So, to your question, I originally found out about this world through an internship opportunity. I had no idea when I was in college that executive coach was a job, that there were people who did leadership development. I had no concept of it. I was actually in college to become a mechanical engineer. I wanted to study how to improve systems, how to work on design, how to improve operations in a business place, and make real change. And I happened to sign up for one of my electives. The time slot worked and I landed in a Introduction to Management course taught by an organizational behavior professor. And I was hooked. I switched my major several weeks later and really immersed myself in organizational behavior, organizational change, and really getting into how do organizations motivate, inspire, work with the people and the highly skilled talent that they have to be able to affect change? So, I’ve either worked in or adjacent to human resources functions for basically my whole career, whether providing programs or doing recruitment or providing different educational opportunities both inside and outside the organization. And so it’s been very interesting to see a wide variety of the ways that leaders are shaped and the challenges that they face and how. On the surface, it seems like there’s a lot of differences, but many entities and many leaders struggle with similar concepts. And I think that’s also been very fascinating. And I’m very lucky that I get to do this on my own and in my own practice in our region.

Minter Dial: Organizational behavior, AKA OB, right?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Absolutely.

Minter Dial: What did you appreciate particularly about organizational behavior? I mean, if I make it a little bit bigger question, how is it that change became your thing?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: I think that one of the things that was rooted in me when I was very young was the idea of the importance of education, first of all, and secondly, looking for ways to make a difference and make an impact. I would not be much of a first generation American if my father didn’t want me to become a physician just like him. And he tried so hard to have me become a physician. And then it was probably actually not until I started explaining to him why I liked organizational behavior or why I was studying this field. Because in my family and in kind of our area, no one else had explored business, no one else had explored management science. And everyone is either in academia or in hard science. And so it was an opportunity for me to share with them, just as you. So, when I was describing it to my father, just as you look at the human body as a system and you identify and you diagnose and you run tests and you do assessments and you try to figure out through your differential diagnosis what’s going on with the patient. I can do that in a company. And let me talk to you about the different ways that I can examine. Is it this arm? Is it this arm? Is it really this leg? Is it something in the environment which is changing what’s happening with this system? And I think it was one of the first times that I was able to explain to somebody, someone so outside of the field, about how what we do can have such an impact, whether we officially call it organizational behavior. In the end, the client maybe doesn’t care what title or what nomenclature we’re using, but I think it really distills down into how do we help folks make change, do the thing that they want to do, achieve the goal that they’ve set out for, you know, reach that next milestone with the talent that they have. And I think that that’s so exciting when I get to work with a team and help them un. Uncover something or talk about something that they’ve been avoiding. So, I think it’s this combination of how do we approach change with that psychology behind it. Right? Because organizational behavior ties to industrial psychology and organizational psychology, which at its core is psychology, but it’s thinking about how to use that information to be able to implement change and integrate change in the organization. So, as you can tell, I’ve drunk the Kool Aid and definitely saw that connection and had the opportunity to explain it many times to members of my family who couldn’t really see how this was going to make a difference.

Minter Dial: So, let’s start with the fact that you, as it was a mechanical engineering, you said.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Yep, Yep.

Minter Dial: So. So, Dr. Mechanical Engineering was your sort of midway path.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Yeah, I think that the doctor component or being a physician is all. I believe one of the things I see in many physicians, and especially my father, is curiosity about why. Curiosity about what’s happening in this system, how does it operate. Certainly there’s different types of medicine and different approaches, but I think that when I find physicians who are excited about their work, they really like to dig in and look at the facts and look at the data and have conversations and read the research and really understand how the systems are working. And I think that for me, specifically the sciences such as chemistry and biology and physics, the way that they were being presented to me were not always easy to understand as to the application, how do we use this? How do we apply this? And so I didn’t gravitate to them. And so medical school was not something that I thought of myself as doing. I think the closest corollary, when I had been trying to figure out how to fulfill their wishes, was, okay, maybe I’ll go be a psychologist. That’s a kind of doctor. They’re in a hospital. But even now I get to do the psychology in a way, just a different application. So, on the surface, it’s not quite as connected. I think the switch to mechanical engineering. I had the opportunity in my high school, in my senior year, we had a small elective course that was on women in engineering. And they were trying to promote just curiosity about different applications and different career opportunities that we could explore. And one of the speakers who Came in, was talking about mechanical engineering as opposed to electrical or civil or, you know, aerospace. And she was like, if you really care about work systems and process improvement and workflow dynamics, mechanical engineer is your starting point. And I was very fortunate to again, be here in Cleveland and have an opportunity to attend Case Western Reserve University, which has a very strong engineering program. So, it seemed like a great match between two things. But little did I know it also had at the time one of the top organizational behavior programs in the country. And so it was also perfectly placed for me to be able to make that switch. So, from doctor to psychologist to workflow analyzer, I kind of made a little bit of a loop to be able to get to do that.

Minter Dial: Well, at the same time, it feels like a justifiable step from doctor to engineer. Like, dad, I’m being a scientist all the same. At least I have mathematics in what I do, and it’s rational and such in sort of more honorable in the eyes of a traditional, more doctorate. And yet the story in my head. I have another thing I want to say, but the story in my head is, boy, if there’s one industry that needs a lot of change, it’s doctors.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Yeah, it’s.

Minter Dial: How does that conversation go down with your pa?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: It’s a challenging one. He’s just actually retired this year. He’s in his early 80s, as he likes to say. And I think that one of the things that we have talked about over the course of the 20 years, I’ve had a chance to work either alongside him in the hospital, with him, or in other areas is the change in how healthcare is delivered. And for those who may be not aware, you know, healthcare in the US Is very much regulated by our insurance companies, and it’s quite a bit of a step.

Minter Dial: And the lobbies in Washington.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Absolutely, absolutely. There are a lot of interests at play that aren’t even the doctor or the patient. And many of the physicians, certainly not all, since I don’t know all of them, many of the physicians that I talk to feel frustration around not being able to focus on patient care or not being able to focus on patient access. Right? The idea that my physician can say, yes, Sara needs this prescription, and then the insurance can say, but does she? Right? The expert has already dictated what should occur. And I think that when we talk about change in these systems, there are a lot of individuals who are trying to approach medicine and healthcare from innovative perspectives, trying to make change within a system that, again, has very strong vested interest. I think it is one that will need quite a bit of systemic perspective and being able to really evaluate who is in power, who is making the choice. And is this something folks want to have? Obviously, folks who have access and who have privilege and resources are able to care whatever care they want, whenever they want it, for whatever the cost. But that’s not everyone’s reality. And so there’s also, again, in America, the challenge that health insurance and access to care is tied to employment. And for many physicians, going back to the physicians, that faces a different problem. Right? How can I make sure that this particular thing will be covered by this particular employer’s insurance? And it’s not just what am I seeing in the system, but what am I seeing in the system that meets the requirements of this particular entity? Right? The variables start to become overwhelming, and you’re not practicing just medicine anymore. One of the areas that I’ve seen, kind of maybe the most interesting innovation as it relates to physicians, is how medical school education has changed and really trying to adapt and modify the way that we educate students for a different type of patient and to really understand the systems that are operating. And that is where we’re going to see some of that change. I’m not saying it’s completely caught up, but being able to respond to even something like social determinants of health, that’s not something that was in any medical textbooks, you know, even 10 years ago. And so, thinking a little bit more about how can this physician best support the patient with all of these other variables at play, it’s a challenging landscape, and they have so many talented folks who are trying to come up with other ways and other approaches. And in a way, the challenge that the physician has is similar to what the engineer faces with infrastructure issues and other hurdles and other, again, vested interests or what teachers face and the regulations and the requirements and how they want to provide the best possible education for students, I think that when we talk about change, there’s so much opportunity, and there are so many people that are trying so desperately to make a difference and to do something either for their clients or their customer, whatever customer looks like for them. And usually there’s some kind of barrier. And so the opportunity is, how can we identify the barrier, see where its bounds are, and see if we can do anything about it. And that’s really what we get to talk about. You know, I’m sure when you are with clients and talking to different organizations, it’s, do we even know what’s holding us back? Do we know what’s blocking our path? And can we do anything about it? That’s a whole separate question. Because if we can’t do anything, how do we adapt to it?

Minter Dial: Well, this is why it’s a fun sort of little wormhole to walk down. First of all, a hat tip to my brother-in-law, Dr. Shamus Carr, surgeon, and my wonderful sister, Dr. Elizabeth Carr, who works the Greater Baltimore Medical Center, pulmonologist, and my father who ran a Hospital for 30 years. So, I’ve sort of been in that world and that’s why I felt like it was fundamental to trot down it. And, and I’ve been recently reading the book Deep Medicine, which is all about the changes through technology, in particular with deep learning, AI and such, and how that’s changing, revolutionizing things and this whole idea of change. So, you were talking about recognizing the barriers, recognizing in organizations. What do you think? How do you lead change to be successful? What do you think is the key to making change actually happen?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Oh, I think that you need to be in an organization with people who care and not just care about the mission, care about, you know, whatever it is that they’re making, but care about working with their colleagues. Right? Sometimes I’ll get an organization where the front line cares deeply but management is not invested or management, please.

Minter Dial: First of all, what if your company doesn’t have a mission?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: I don’t know how you’re in operation if you don’t have a strong mission.

Minter Dial: Well, first of all, I think, you know, having worked in business myself for many years, many companies, this idea of purpose is sort of a foreign object. Then if you’re an investment banker, my purpose is to make money or my purpose is to save the world. But people roll the eyes behind the purpose.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Yeah.

Minter Dial: So, is it possible to induct or create change? If this purpose is either non-existent. Or full of shit?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: I think that you can force change. I think you can force change if the person doesn’t believe in it. Whether it will be long lasting is something else. I mean, we can make people comply, right? We can make people do the thing that we need them to do. But that’s not a system in which either people are happy or it’s going to have safety measures or the risk will slightly increase. I think if you want people to care, they have to see that it means something. Right? So, to your point on the bank, right, we’re making money for what? Like to what end? To fill whose pockets make their shareholders happy. But is that a satisfying mission? Right? And sure they can make changes. They make changes all the Time to meet regulations, to innovate this, do that. But when you talk about people who really care, who get excited about the work, it reduces the friction on the change. Right? Going back to the physics, which I didn’t do so well in, it’s not that you can’t make it Right? I can’t. I can roll the ball up a hill. Will I get it up the hill? Yeah, with great effort, with great energy, with resources lost. But wouldn’t it be nicer if I could roll it downhill? Wouldn’t it be nicer If I had 20 people pushing it with me? And I think that that’s where we talk about, do we see the value in this? So, perhaps it’s maybe not purpose as the statement, but why do this? I had someone I was talking to, she’s like, I really want to, you know, innovate in this system and I want to make it better so people can work faster. And why should we have them work faster? And she’s like, so we can have time, I don’t know, to get through the process faster. And I’m like, okay, but why? Just so they can do more? How is that an incentive for them? And said instead we started talking about what would they do if they had more time and what would the benefit be to that team? To this was specifically an accounting team to get through close faster. Right? Why should we, why should we prioritize getting through clothes faster? What’s the benefit? Right? Is there an organizational benefit? Does this team benefit? Does the individual benefit? Why. Why are we investing the energy in a bit. And I don’t think a lot of people pause to ask that. Right? Why are we even doing this? Oh, well, you know, if it’s just to be busy or to keep, you know, looking like we’re doing stuff that’s again, unsustainable in the long run. Right? I want to make sure everyone’s working.

Minter Dial: Yeah. You mentioned the word compliance, which brings me back to medicine. It’s. I’m a type 1 diabetic and it’s not uncommon for people who are type one diabetics not to be compliant, if you will, with the amount of insulin that you should take.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: And patient non-compliance. That’s what goes in your chart.

Minter Dial: And that’s another area where you would have thought the change of behavior would be obvious. Hey, mentor, the reason why is you’re going to live or live longer and yet people aren’t compliant with the medications. I feel like it’s a similar kind of vein within companies to gain that Energy behind the change you want to bring along and the compliance that’s necessary. That why just living. Making me live longer. You would have thought it’s obvious, but it seems like so many people don’t even get or get moved into any. Why there’s some sort of Teflon feeling to so many people and some organizations to make change. Dig in. So, what is the grit, the asperity that actually makes that stick?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: I think, and I love your kind of metaphor in using the. Well, reality for you. But thinking about, let’s say you have a heart attack and you know that the reason that you had a heart attack is because of your diet or the lack of exercise or whatever the thing is that happened and that was the reason or the stress at your job. And on the one hand, it’s easy for the doctor or the consultant to come in and say, oh, well, you know, just work less and take this magic pill and it’ll just be better. And we know. Right? Or anyone who has a chronic disease, you. It’s not just that. Right. It’s not as simple as just do this. Because when we’re talking about, as you said, when we find that purpose. Purpose is great for an overarching. Where are we aiming to. But what happens on a Tuesday when I’m just not feeling like it? Right. I don’t want to. I’m burnt out, I’m tired and you know, you need to take the medicine. I appreciate that it’s going to make me live longer. But like, live longer for what? Right. How is this going to the bigger.

Minter Dial: Why.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Yeah. Which is a very different question than just did you take the medicine? And I think that, you know, tying it to when we talk about why change is needed in the organization or what has happened that requires that I had a physician, or maybe she was a physician’s assistant, whom I was speaking to about chronic illness. And we were just talking about the concept that pharmacologically or, you know, occupational health changes or all the other stuff that we can get prescribed is a component. But the psychological impact of I have to do this. Right. I have to monitor X, Y and Z. I have to do this, this and this. And if I don’t, I’ll be harming myself. Even with that knowledge, I may make the choice one day to not take the medicine, to not manage it. Right. Just as in the organization. I know we have these financial controls for a reason. If we don’t do cash reconciliation, here’s what’s going to happen. If we don’t Audit our books. Here’s what’s going to happen. And obviously, the risk is just a different scale. People know that bad stuff will happen, but that’s not enough. And the motivation today of, oh, I want to live longer for my kids, okay, but. And then what right is that? The life I want to have, or I want to live longer so that I can, you know, change more people’s lives, okay, but how do I know I’m doing that? There’s doubt and questions that I think come up at all points, whether you’re at the individual or team or organizational level. And I don’t think a lot of people spend the time to debrief or reflect on how did we get here? Why did we get here? To grieve the change that we’re making, to acknowledge what it is that we’re losing, because it is a change. We’re no longer doing it that way. And that had comfort. And whether or not it was effective, it was still comfortable. We got used to it. And so for that person who gets diagnosed, you know, and they can no longer have bread, does it mean they don’t want bread anymore? No, they still want bread, but they can’t experience it in the same way. And there is grief every day where they have to make the choice, I’m not going to have bread. But we don’t talk about that. We just say, oh, you’ve got this disease. Don’t eat bread. Without actually acknowledging there’s a psychological deep component of, but I still want bread. I still want to do X or Y or Z. And so I think in organizations specifically, we don’t talk about the psychology behind the change and how it impacts the person, their identity, their sense of self, and what’s really going on as they kind of fit into this larger system, which is how we get resistance and how we get that friction, because we’re not talking about it and what’s really going on.

Minter Dial: I like this word grief. It’s interesting because, I mean, obviously, on the one hand, hospital or medical terminology and grief or death and such, and this idea of change, it is a strong thing. So, Sara, I want to switch now into discussing this idea of your podcast, which is, can I offer you some feedback?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Yes.

Minter Dial: And so the way I came across this term is thinking about, what can I offer you? And the difficulty of me offering you feedback. My bigger problem is actually what I see more frequently is the ability to receive feedback. And I was wondering to what extent what you do is more about the receiver than the giver. And.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: I Think that when I talk to folks, it’s, it’s a little bit of 50, 50. Some folks really struggle with the giving of feedback. They don’t feel qualified, they perhaps don’t feel like their perspective is valued or they’re not the right person to be delivering it. So, there are some folks who do struggle with that on the receiving side. I mean, I think on the one hand, you know, when, when we hear the word feedback, a lot of people I talk to presume negative feedback, constructive feedback. But I know a lot of people who are allergic to compliments. They just cannot take a compliment. And a compliment is feedback, right? It’s someone telling us they like something about ourselves, they enjoy it, it works well, whatever it may be. And I think that the receiving can be also uncomfortable, whether or not it’s positive or negative or constructive or supportive to us. I think that there is a discomfort in either side of the equation. Either am I the person or can I do this well, right? Am I good enough to be the deliverer? And then on the recipient side there’s the fear of am I being judged for not being good enough? Right. Is it accurate? What are they really saying? And I think that’s where a lot of the internal self talk comes up, right. Even before you get the words out or even before you process it.

Minter Dial: So, the reason why I layer into that is I have a feeling, and maybe it’s just my own personal bias, that my experience receiving feedback informs my ability to give feedback. And it’s that way round. And so if I am a know it all, then the, the way I’m going to give it might be contaminated by the fact that I’m an arrogant son of a gun. And therefore the way it’s received when I give it doesn’t come off so nicely because I’m a son of a gun, arrogant arsenal. And so the relationship with receiving it, I feel, has an impact on my ability to give it. I wanted you to riff on that.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Yeah, I mean, I think that as you were discussing, I was thinking of the lens in which we see the world. So, there’s one of the components I talk about is the idea that your different identities shape your view as if they were like contact lenses. And so if I perceive myself to be a certain way, the way I deliver that feedback, right, How I come off that arrogance, that pretension, that belief that I know what’s best for you, Let me tell you what you don’t know. But then in the same way, my receiving of it, right, that flavors my Palate that flavors the way in which I observe it, that I take it in, the bias in which I bring it in. I do think that one of the challenges that people encounter with feedback is they feel that they have to take it in, they have to absorb it, they have to make it part of something they have to do differently. And I think that feedback, more. More so is important to understand from whom it’s coming. Right? If I meet you one time and you tell me, you know, Sara, you’re fantastic at this, or Sara, I really don’t like the way you do this. It is my judgment of my perception of my relationship with you. Who are you to me? How well do you know me? Right? I’m putting all these different layers, which affects the lens in which I. The way I receive that feedback. And then in turn, I process it, and then I decide what I’m going to do with it and how I’m going to respond. I think some people say, oh, well, Minter must know what he’s talking about. He’s an expert in his field. He must know well, but he has his perspective, right? It is one perspective from this particular view. And I don’t think that I see a lot of people pause to think about the perception that’s coming to me and how my view will change the message, whether or not it was intended that way. Right. Whether or not it was set up in that way. And so I think when you’re talking about this difference between the giving and the receiving and how we put our own spin on it, I don’t think that the average person is great at acknowledging what their bias is before they even get to the content of the message, or to pause and acknowledge and say, what is this person trying to tell me? From what kind of space is it coming? Is it from good intent? Is it from bad intent? And then I’ve received it, I’ve processed it, I’ve removed any kind of alteration that I myself am adding on. And then what do I want to do with it? I don’t have to internalize it. I don’t have to, you know, carry it with me every day. But maybe it is a piece of feedback that is moving to me and I do want to hold. I think that a lot of people spend a lot of time in their heads reprocessing and reprocessing, and maybe I’m projecting, and that’s just me that spends a lot of time in my head. But I think when we really take the time to dig into what people are saying, this person, I like to believe this person is offering me feedback because they think it’s going to be helpful. And I try to figure out, especially if it’s a out of pocket comment, I really get curious about, like, what were they trying to do here? And like, I think to myself and try to understand what happened and how did I misread what their intent was, whether or not their delivery was.

Minter Dial: Well, all right, so there you on the reception side, and I’m just wondering to what extent, if we had to sort of compartmentalize or value one side or the other one is what I hear is the, the relationship that we have and how that weighs on or changes the nature of feedback giving and receiving. And the second I was wondering was to what extent the profile, the personality of the individual, for example, their learning style should inform the way you give feedback and to what extent in your interviews, on your podcast, you’ve heard people talk about those type of nuances in the way you give feedback.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Absolutely. I think that there’s a lot of different models and, you know, management and management science that talk about, you know, adapting the different styles or situational styles or whatever the terminology is. And I’d say a fair number of people that I talk to are trying to adapt it, trying to factor in this other person, how best might they receive it, to craft a message that works for them, that adaptation takes effort, takes time, takes energy. And that can be exhausting for some folks. Especially if I had one gentleman I was speaking to and he was really frustrated working on his team. He perceived, he thought that he was the one that was adapting on his team and no one was adapting to him. And he was tired of constantly. He felt like he was making the effort, he was making the shift, he was modifying the way he spoke to fit everyone else. And he wasn’t getting that reciprocity which was building some resentment.

Minter Dial: If I may start just one second. This is a very similar type of discussion with regard to empathy. I am applying empathy to you. I am listening to you, I’m understanding you. But I don’t see any coming back. And I see executives suffering from that return. And so at some point they have empathy burnout because they’ve been applying it everywhere else. But no one fucking wants to take care of me.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Right? Right.

Minter Dial: I’m the boss.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Right.

Minter Dial: So, everyone else says, well, you’re the boss, you get paid more. That’s why you get paid more.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Right.

Minter Dial: And it’s a fundamental breakdown in human relationships because of that title.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Title, absolutely. And that lack of Empathy or lack of honesty, whatever that is. I think that we presume that the other person must be getting it from somewhere else. But you’re right. A lot of the folks that I talk to, no one’s telling them the truth. No one’s telling them what’s actually going on or how they actually feel.

Minter Dial: Maybe there’s another bigger issue, which is how many people actually know who they are when we seek truth or when we seek transparency. Actually, how transparent we wish the transparent to be. On me, how truthful do I think I am? I always feel like, you know, this. You know, the army wants you. When you. When you point, you have one finger pointing this way, be three pointing backwards. There’s. There’s always this sort of, you know, internal story turmoil that impacts or informs the way I’m operating outside.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Yeah. Transparency is such a tricky word. And when we talk about the. The opacity of information, transparency and how much you provide is. When I talk about. It tends to be about control of information. Right.

Minter Dial: How I want you to be transparent with me.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Right. I want to know as much everything.

Minter Dial: About you, but I’m not about you.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Right. Because how will I maintain my advantage if I share more, if I am more vulnerable than you’re being vulnerable? And that is a really risky chance. Right. We talk about psychological safety and the need to create that in environments, but why should I, Right. How could it be used against me? How? Right. A lot of people feel threatened at work, right? It’s not as easy as just, oh, well, you should trust your coworkers. Because why? Right. What are the real ramifications of that? And I think that that was one of the things that I. I heard a lot from people, especially in the first few months of COVID They had not even. They felt that they were so essential to their organization and so essential to the operation. And then they had been furloughed and then they had been laid off, and then it was, who’s really essential? But how are we treating those essential people? And the perception of, oh, I’m not as crucial, I’m not as critical as the business perceives me to be, and what does that mean of my identity and what does that mean of the career that I’ve built and, you know, now what? And again, the control, the desire to have control on one’s career, which is a huge aspect of someone’s life, really came out in, at least in conversations that I was having. I’d be curious if you had them similarly. But the fear around. I am now without the information. And I don’t know what’s going to happen and I can’t predict and my forecasting doesn’t work. And that’s a new risk for some folks that they’ve not encountered.

Minter Dial: Well, I certainly think that there’s a whole space around information, reality, truth, not the topic I want to get into. I want to. However, I do want one last question for you, Sara.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Yes.

Minter Dial: Which is, and you mentioned the word trust. And I was wondering, is there a relationship between trust and feedback?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: I think when we talk about trust, when I think of it in the context of feedback, you have to believe or trust that this other person has my best intent. Right. Like, they really want to help me. They’re not here to harm me. Like, what if someone does ask me the question, can I offer you some feedback? I’m putting faith that they are going to be kind. It doesn’t have to be positive, but they’re going to do their best to deliver it in a humane way, in a positive way. And that is, that is a high trust. It’s vulnerability to be put out there in that way. And I think that that belief of it’s going to be okay, they’re going to handle me well, even if it’s just for a split second. I do think they’re deeply connected because we don’t know always, but we have to put faith in that moment and really hope that that person takes care of us.

Minter Dial: Which really circles back to that other question I had, which is about relationship. Because if you and I have established a relationship and we have garnered and built trust over time, when you finally come to say, hey, mentor, can I give you some word of advice here based on the past? You’re going to say, possible or not, that it’s going to be good. And so you kind of have to earn the ability, therefore, to get to be able to give useful feedback. Because the issue is if your filter is, oh, this is a dick who’s about to give me information about me, and I don’t think it’s going to be healthy. Your filters, your warning, warning, good earth, is that ever going to be effective? Sara, I’ve had great fun listening and diving into feedback. I’ve actually had the opportunity to talk at a few medical centers with regard to this notion of feedback for doctors, which kind of informed the beginning of our conversation. And I work in. I talk about paddle tennis and the idea of feedback when you’re talking, when you’re playing with your partner. And how do you give feedback that’s useful hey, you fucked up just now, you know, or hey, listen, you know, what kind of feedback is it? Emotional, technical, tactical? How do you devise what feedback to give when is fundamentally interesting and useful? In business, we all need to learn how to give and receive feedback. So, I love the fact that you and I are connected on Evergreen. Tell me a little bit. One last thing, which is what’s the biggest thing you’ve learned in running your podcast? Can I offer you some feedback?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: I think one of the things that I’ve really appreciated is hearing so many different perspectives on ways that folks provide each other with feedback, how they are trying in their organizations to really do the uncomfortable thing and provide that feedback when it’s needed most. And I love that we get the opportunity to share from a variety of perspectives how on the one hand, it’s similar challenges that folks are having, but innovative approaches to the way that they frame their feedback. They talk about feedback and everyone has a slightly different take on it. And I think that that’s really fun to be able to hear different ways we can approach those conversations and that listeners can kind of walk away with a whole variety of different tips and tools and strategies from a variety of industries and backgrounds. So, that’s been really fun to hear and listen and talk with our guests about.

Minter Dial: All right, so you do interviews. How often are they and how can people get in touch and listen to your. Your wonderful podcast? Can I offer you some feedback?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Yes. So, our podcast is available on every platform that you can find. Podcasts. It is a podcast. Yeah. Thank you, Evergreen. And our production team is fantastic. It’s a weekly podcast. We do interview style with unexpected guest once a week. Once a month, actually, and then the other three times in the month. We are also offering interviews with consultants. These are fantastic conversations because you get to hear from an industry perspective, someone who talks to a lot of different types of people. And as third parties, we provide feedback in a different way to the clients that we work with. And it’s a different type of relationship. So, those are always fun conversations. And then we have two shorter styles of episode one is focused on business bytes. They’re about five minutes, little snapshots on a business or leadership topic. We weave these into a lot of our other programming, but if you’re looking for a short snippet and some extra resources. And then the fourth one that we do is a newer one. We focus on a recent study statistic and talk about how leaders can actually use that so they don’t have to read the white papers. We read them and so we talk about the impact for them and how to really integrate it and how make change in their organizations relative to that topic. So, always something new every week and love to have folks subscribe and download wherever you can get your podcasts.

Minter Dial: Put those in the show notes. So, what about getting in touch with you, Sara?

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Getting in touch with me? Best way to do that is we have an email address just for the podcast. You can do that at podcast@mod.network. MOD Network is the consulting company of which I’m a part of, but that’s the best way to get in touch with me related to this message.

Minter Dial: Beautiful. I’ll put that in the show notes. Many thanks, Sara.

Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett: Thank you so much. Mentor. It was a pleasure.